@Proclaimer

More from Origen:

1. Psalm 102 → Hebrews 1:10–12 applied to the Son
Source: Contra Celsum 1.67
“In speaking of the Son he says: ‘Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth…’”

2. Psalm 102 → The Son as Creator
Source: De Principiis 1.2.2
“The Son… is said in the Epistle to the Hebrews to have laid the found…[Read more]

@Proclaimer

The theos of John 1:1b identifies the theos of John 1:1c as the YHWH who laid the foundation of the world and the heavens were the work of His hands and not only that but that as YHWH, this theos who is the Son, will at a future time, fold them up like a garment and they will be changed in Hebrews 1:10-12.

Amazing!

@Proclaimer

The theos of John 1:1b identifies the theos of John 1:1c as the YHWH who laid the foundation of the world and the heavens were the work of His hands and not only that but that as YHWH, this theos who is the Son, will at a future time, fold them up like a garment and they will be changed in Hebrews 1:10-12.

Amazing!

@Keith

Are you claiming that Jesus — the theos who now has all authority in heaven and on earth — is a false god?

@Keith

Which “theos” was given all authority in heaven and on earth after the resurrection of Christ?

@Keith

Thank you — you said the “You” in both Psalm 102 and Hebrews 1:10 is Jehovah.

So according to your own answer:

– The “You” in Psalm 102 = Jehovah
– The “You” in Hebrews 1:10 = Jehovah
– Hebrews 1:10 is spoken to the Son

Therefore the Father identifies the Son as Jehovah.

This is exactly the point I’ve been asking you to consider.

What…[Read more]

@Keith

You are bringing up John 1:1 and 2 Corinthians 4:4, but those points don’t answer the specific question I asked you. That’s a discussion for another time.

Let’s stay with the passage I quoted, because it is the Father speaking, and the wording is identical to Psalm 102.

Hebrews 1:8 says clearly: “But about the Son He says…”…[Read more]

@Keith

How do you define “Christians?”

Jehovah the Father—the One speaking to David’s Lord in Psalm 110:1—identifies His Son in Hebrews 1 with the Jehovah described in Psalm 102.

Psalm 110:1 shows Jehovah (the Father) speaking to someone distinct: “my Lord.”

Psalm 102 describes Jehovah as the eternal, unchanging Creator of heaven and earth.

H…[Read more]

@Keith

One of my sons lives in NY also. I’m in TN, in the Bible Belt of America. 🙂

So you have been a JW basically all your life. Do JW’s say that they are Christians? Do you know where in the Bible it is written where God the Father identifies Jesus as Jehovah?

@Keith
Hi Keith, thanks for joining me over here. Could you tell me a little about yourself like when you became a JW and anything you would like me to know about you? Do you live in the States?

@Keith

Amen, Jesus is the Messiah! I set up a one-on-one discussion with you to discuss and share our beliefs. I’m not a JW but always like to discuss the distinctions. If interested, go to the discussion here: https://heavennet.net/forums/topic/lightenup-keith-discussion/#post-948050

Hope to see you there,

Lightenup (LU)

@Keith

Hoping to discuss your JW beliefs here.

For anyone following this exchange, I want to offer a brief summary so the main point doesn’t get lost in the back‑and‑forth.

The Tanakh presents a consistent pattern for God’s chosen figures: suffering or rejection first, followed by vindication and restoration. This pattern appears in Joseph, Moses, David, the Servant in Isaiah, and the pierced…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Below is a simple comparison of what the Tanakh says the Messiah must do, and how Jesus either fulfilled it already or is said to fulfill it in the future. This avoids going in circles and keeps everything text‑anchored.

Messianic Expectation (Tanakh) / Jesus in NT / Messianic Age Fulfillment

Born from David (Jer 23:5; 2 Sam 7…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

You’ve made it very clear who you believe the Messiah is *not*.
So let me ask the obvious question you’ve avoided:

Who do you believe the Messiah is?

Not “what the Messiah will do.”
Not “why Jesus isn’t the Messiah.”
Not “what Christianity gets wrong.”
I’m asking for a name.

According to your own reading of the Tanakh:

• Who is t…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

1. ISAIAH 53
If the servant is Israel, then explain why the servant is righteous (53:11) when Israel is repeatedly called sinful (Isa 1:4; 48:8). Explain why the servant suffers for the sins of others (53:5–6) when Israel suffers for its own sins (Isa 40:2). Explain why the servant dies (53:8–9) when Israel never dies. Explain why…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

Calling Proverbs 8 “just poetry” doesn’t erase what the text actually says. Hebrew poetry uses personification to reveal truth, not to hide it. And the truth in Proverbs 8 is that Wisdom is portrayed as a real, pre‑creation figure distinct from God in role and relationship.

If Wisdom “is God,” then explain why the text says:
– “YH…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

You’re demanding that the Messiah fulfill every *end‑time* prophecy in His first appearance, but the Tanakh never says that. Not once. You invented that rule.

The Tanakh’s actual pattern is always the same:
first suffering/rejection,
then exaltation,
then worldwide restoration.

This is Joseph, Moses, David, the Servant in Isaia…[Read more]

@DesireTruth

You asked: “Can you show me anywhere in the Tanakh where the Messiah was going to die for the sins of mankind?”

Yes. The Tanakh teaches this in multiple passages.

1. Isaiah 53
The Servant dies as a substitutionary sacrifice:
• “He was pierced for our transgressions” (53:5)
• “The LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all” (53:6…[Read more]