Understanding baptism…

This topic contains 141 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 6 years, 9 months ago.

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  • #3538
     NickHassan 
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    ” Let us ,then go beyond the initial teaching about Christ…..instruction about baptisms..” Heb 6.1-2. There are several baptisms in the Word as well as the water baptism of Jesus.There is the baptism of John, baptism with the Holy Spirit and Jesus's baptism of suffering in Lk 12.50.Water baptism may be a sign of the cleansing of our consciences but that does not make it optional.It is the circumcision of the New Testament.Col 2.11-12

    There is no doubt that Jesus commands that we receive water baptism. John's assertion that we understand more than the apostles will make for interesting conversations with them if he ever meets them. The bland suggestion that all we have to do is ask Jesus to be our saviour has no biblical basis and is a popular lie. Mystical and intellectual concepts are for philosophers, not followers of Jesus.

    The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a baptism of power as shown in Acts 1 and it's fruit in the rest of the book of Acts. The apostles had already received the Holy Spirit in Jn 20.22. To say that is all we need is to oppose the instruction of Peter to baptise in water those who had been baptised in the Spirit in Acts 10. I prefer the teaching of Peter.

    #3539
     ringo111 
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    A good thing to distinguish here is,

    Recieving the holy spirit opposed to recieving the gift of speaking in toungues.

    Toungues is just another gift and not neccesary for a believer.

    If you are forcing yourself to speak babble, That is not real toungues. For the disciples did not sit there murmering untill they could scat out random words, For I know many try to do that, and think they are talking in toungues. Scat(dada) is a form of singing, and was a popularized version of forced toungues, and prooves that it can easily be faked.

    1 Corinthians 14
    1Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tongue[1] does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.[2] 3But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. 4He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,[3] but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues,[4] unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.

    If you read more It continues to explain the same line, that toungues is just a gift, and prophecy is greater, Unless you have an interpreter for the toungue. Many people these days claim to speak in toungues, yet, I see no interpreting being done.

    sum up, toungues, is a gift to some, prophecy to others. You can pray for these gifts.

    #3540
     NickHassan 
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    All gifts of the Holy Spirit are good and helpful to the Body of Christ. But they are ONLY for the baptised. Paul said he wished that all christians spoke in tongues[1cor 14 5]so we should not deny the value of this gift. He said it was to be used to speak to God ,not men and this is shown in Romans 8.23-27 as the Spirit intercedes for the needs we do not know we have or cannot understand.

    In some churches it is abused with the tongues used [? forced]as a form of public worship and that is against the spirit of 1 cor 14 .23–28.

    Do not believe every Spirit as there are abuses in this area.

    #3541
     t8 
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    I agree Nick.

    #3542
     NickHassan 
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    Now when they heard this they were pierced to the heart and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles
    ” Brethren ,what shall we do?”
    And Peter said to them
    “repent ,and let each of you be baptised in the Name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for all who are far off as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself”
    And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them saying
    ” Be saved from this perverse generation”
    So then those who had received his word were baptised. and there were added that day about 3000 souls” Acts 2 37f

    How can anyone read these words and say baptism is not necessary for salvation and we are now saved by some other means. What has changed? Who changed the gospel? Listen to Peter and the apostles-they obeyed God.

    #3543
     t8 
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    Acts 10:47
    “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

    How is this possible if baptism is necessary for salvation? How can God's Spirit be received by a man who is not baptized and therefore not saved according to your teaching.?

    Salvation scriptures that do not include baptism.

    Matthew 24:13
    but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

    Acts 2:21
    And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'

    Acts 16:31
    They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved–you and your household.”

    Romans 10:9
    That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    Romans 10:13
    for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[ 10:13 Joel 2:32]

    1 Timothy 2:15
    But women[ 2:15 Greek she] will be saved[ 2:15 Or restored] through childbearing–if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

    Notice the next scripture mentions baptism, but doesn't say those who are not baptized are damned which is how many read it. So I wonder if the following scripture is being interpretted correctly?

    Mark 16:16
    Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

    I am not preaching against baptism, but I want to see it in the true context. I want the truth.

    More food for thought!

    Acts 8:16
    because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into[ 8:16 Or in] the name of the Lord Jesus.

    Acts 11:16
    Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with[ 11:16 Or in] water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

    #3544
     NickHassan 
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    Hi T8,
    Let us go through those scriptures one at a time.
    Acts 10 .47. You ask how is it that a man can receive the Spirit prior to salvation and thus how is it that baptism is required. God is sovereign. The importance is shown by Peter's immediate response.
    “He gave orders that they be baptised in the name of Jesus”
    He knew it was essential and that God had the right to reverse the usual order to get that message through to Him. Have a look at Peter's description of the event in Acts 11.16
    “If God was giving them the same gift He gave us when we first believed in the Lord Jesus who was I to interfere with Him?”

    Matt 24 .13. Do you really believe that just standing firm saves us? That is to do with holding on to the salvation you have received as in 2 Tim 2.10-13.

    Acts 2.21 is a quote about endtimes from Joel and after saying
    “The sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before that great and glorious day of the Lord, THEN everyone SHALL BE saved who calls on the Name of the Lord.”
    Those prior events have yet to happen.

    Acts 16.31. Paul explained the meaning of his statement by his actions. ” They proceeded to announce the Word of God to him and to everyone in the house. AT THAT LATE HOUR OF THE NIGHT he took them and bathed their wounds and then HE AND HIS WHOLE HOUSEHOLD WERE BAPTISED” A perfect illustration that baptism is not only necessary but urgent.It also shows how little we understand the Word to think that only belief was implied in the original statement.

    Romans 10 .9 Why does everyone miss the words “WILL BE saved” action as well as faith is required to reap the blessing as James pointed out In Js 2 .18

    Romans 10 13. The same implied action with belief as above is here as well as the comment about the Acts 2.21. In context it is also a plea to the Jews to just grasp the full meaning of the Word [ot]they were so familiar with to follow Jesus.

    1Tim 2 .15. Honestly T8 it is unreal to suggest that childbearing saves people. Jesus didn't need to come and die for womankind? You must know it is in the same vein as working out your salvation shown elsewhere in Timothy. It is just the works God regards as sufficient for his saved servants who are Women.

    Mk 16.16. God is so good. He leaves the door open for exceptions but guarantees salvation to those who obey.Otherwise He would be bound by His Word to exclude all others.

    Acts 8.16. Yes not all of the apostles laid hands on believers to receive the Holy Spirit. Phillip certainly was one who did not have that role, but God made sure the baptised believers had the opportunity here as well as in Acts 19 to be blessed with the Spirit as was promised. God is so good.

    Acts 11 16. Yes John baptised with water and the apostles were baptised with the Holy Spirit. Yes and all believers were baptised in water and the Holy Spirit. These are not alternatives and the whole of Acts tells us .There is no conflict here.

    I am surprised you did not bring out the old one about Paul not baptising many. He was so frustrated at the responsibilty that went with that role waiting till some evidence of the work of God in them became apparent. New christians take a lot of patience and Paul had more important work to do preaching while any believer could do the easier work of baptism.
    Don't let lies confuse the simple gospel

    #3545
     t8 
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    Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 04 2004,00:07)
    Acts 10 .47. You ask how is it that a man can receive the Spirit prior to salvation and thus how is it that baptism is required. God is sovereign. The importance is shown by Peter's immediate response.
    “He gave orders that they be baptised in the name of Jesus”
    He knew it was essential and that God had the right to reverse the usual order to get that message through to Him. Have a look at Peter's description of the event in Acts 11.16
    “If God was giving them the same gift He gave us when we first believed in the Lord Jesus who was I to interfere with Him?”


    True that is. But I am trying to find out what baptism actually does. I am not questioning it's importance as I believe that all those accept the gospel should be baptized.

    Quote
    Matt 24 .13. Do you really  believe that just standing firm saves us? That is to do with holding on to the salvation you have received as in 2 Tim 2.10-13.

    Correct, this needs to be read in context. The point I am making with Acts 2:37 is what is the context of this verse (with other similar verses that do not mention baptism) and what can we really deduce from it.

    Quote
    Romans 10 .9 Why does everyone miss the words “WILL BE saved” action as well as faith is required to reap the blessing as James pointed out In Js 2 .18


    Not sure of your point here. Acts 2:38 says “will” as well.

    Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

    Quote
    Romans 10 13. The same implied action with belief as above is here as well as the comment about the Acts 2.21. In context it is also a plea to the Jews to just grasp the full meaning of the Word [ot]they were so familiar with to follow Jesus.

    True, faith without works is dead. Belief must be accompanied by works. Works by themselves do not save us. Salvation is a free gift of God, not by works. So we must accept and receive. I just wonder if baptism is not a work. Yes a required work if we are to be in God's will, but does it actually save us?

    Quote
    1Tim 2 .15. Honestly T8 it is unreal to suggest that childbearing saves people. Jesus didn't need to come and die for womankind? You must know it is in the same vein as working out your salvation shown elsewhere in Timothy. It is just the works God regards as sufficient for his saved servants who are Women.

    True that is. We need to read the context. Again I wonder about the true context of baptism. Does it save us. Or is it a work that proves our faith?

    Quote
    Mk 16.16. God is so good. He leaves the door open for exceptions but guarantees salvation to those who obey.Otherwise He would be bound by His Word to exclude all others.

    True.

    Again I am trying to find out what baptism really does. Is it the correct reaction to hearing the gospel, like signing a contract sealing the deal), or does the act/work actually save us?

    I think the former. Any ideas?

    #3546
     NickHassan 
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    Hi t8,
    If we go back to Jer 31.31 God speaks of the New Covenant and the end of v 34 is
    ” All from the least to greatest shall know Me ,says the Lord ,for I will FORGIVE their evildoing and remember their sin no more”
    Acts 2.38″ You must reform and be baptised ,each one of you ,in the Name of Jesus Christ ,that YOUR SINS MAY BE FORGIVEN..”
    Coll 1.13″He rescued us from the power of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son.Through Him we have redemption,the FORGIVENESS of our sins”
    Coll 2.12.” In baptism you were not only buried with Him but also raised to life with Him from the dead. Even when you were dead to sin and your flesh was uncircumcised ,God gave you new life in company with Christ. He PARDONED all our sins .He cancelled the bond that stood against us with all it's claims ,snatching it up and nailing it to the cross. Thus did God disarm the principalities and powers . He made a public show of them ,and leading them off captive, triumphed in the person of Christ”
    Gal 3.26″.. All of you who have been baptised into Christ have clothed yourself with Him”

    In Jesus we are forgiven, we have the breastplate of righteousness against the accuser's arrows of guilt and lawbreaking. Satan's power from the Law has no more ability to affect us. It saves [1 Peter 3.21]us by destroying the effect of the law of sin and death on us. Without blood there is no forgiveness as Hebrews tells us and baptism covers us with the blood of Jesus -sufficient to save all men who want it.

    Zech ch 3 Tells of Joshua clad in filthy garments who is clad by the Lord in festal garments and the Lord says ” See I have taken away your guilt”. We have our sin covered over with the garments of the Son of God so when the Father sees us He sees the righteousness of His beloved Son-as in Lk 15.

    If God chooses to do this mighty work by the symbol of baptism should we refuse, like the leprous king refused to be bathed for healing, till he was brought to his senses. God's ways are not our ways -it is wiser to obey even if it does not make sense to us.

    Baptism of a believer is not the work of the believer but a good deed of the saved servant who does the baptising.

    The word “will “or “shall “represents a promise, not a result. As Acts 16 .31 shows the fulfillment of the promise requires obedience to god's plan-baptism.As James tells us “Even the demons believe” so belief is not enough. Our God requires a sign and this is the circumcision of the NT.

    We know some are saved by works,the sheep and goat judgement is of works but is not for followers of Jesus.They have already been to the Tribunal Of Christ.

    #3547
     t8 
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    If salvation is a free gift, then perhaps baptism is how we receive it.

    #3548
     NickHassan 
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    I find Lk 7.29 interesting.
    ” The entire populace that had heard Jesus, even the Tax collectors, gave praise to God, for they had received from John the baptismal bath he administered. The Pharisees and the scribes ,on the other hand , by failing to receive his baptism defeated God's plan in their regard.”

    The suggestion is that John's baptism of repentance caused an internal change in those who received it in obedience to God's plan. They had new faith and awareness of God and were totally open to the salvation teaching of Jesus.

    The scribes and pharisees remained blind and deaf to Jesus and His ministry and they saw Him as an spiritual enemy to be opposed rather than the Son of God.

    Yes I agree with your thoughts.

    #3549
     MrBob 
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    It looks like I have some reading to do. I've never been baptised (by water anyway). :)

    #3550
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Mr Bob,
    It was easier for the Israelites to check on their circumcision than it is for the circumcision of the New testament-Baptism. It is also interesting the Jews only had a rite for the men.
    But with baptism we have to remember or record what was done and said. If it was done without your consent or repentance then it can have no validity as it would be magic if it did.
    But was it done in the Name of Jesus? There is no other name by which we can be saved . If not and anyone thinks they need to restart our life in Jesus does anyone know where is the best place to go..are there believers who travel and are willing to be available in this way?

    #3551
     NickHassan 
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    Hi .
    Baptism into Jesus is the door to salvation and delay is not a good idea.
    Acts 22.16
    “Why delay then? Be baptised at once and wash away your sins as you call upon His name”

    Here is a challenge,
    If scripture tells us we are baptised in Jesus's death[Collosians 2.12 and Romans 6.3] what of those whom Jesus and his disciples baptised prior to his death? My thought is that those baptisms were the same as John the Baptist's- a baptism of repentance.

    Likewise the baptism of the apostles was never recorded and this may relate to the same issue. Jesus told them they had been made clean by the word spoken to them[Jn 15.3]

    Who knows?

    #3552
     max2extreme 
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    I pose a question to you…If baptism is an absolute necessity, what do you say about Luke 23:40-42 where one of the other 2 crucified with Jesus recognized Jesus as his sole savior and repented, and jesus forgave him and said the thief will see him in heaven?

    #3553
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Max,
    The scripture you quote reads differently
    Lk 23.40
    ” ..But the other one rebuked him. 'Have you no fear of God, seeing you are under the same sentence? We deserve it, after all. We are only paying the price for what we've done, but this man has done nothing wrong' Then he said 'Jesus remember me when you enter upon your reign'
    And Jesus replied
    'I assure you ,this day you will be with me in PARADISE”

    Jesus had not yet died so it was not possible to be baptised into His death yet.

    He was not promised that he would go to Heaven but Paradise ,which I believe is the place of waiting for Old Testament believers awaiting Jesus.

    He had Faith. He feared God.He asked in faith and he received his response.

    God makes exceptions anyway as He chooses but that does not make untrue that He gave a us a path to follow. He was baptised in water and the spirit. He said “follow Me”

    God is Love .[1Jn]
    Mercy triumphs over judgement.[Jas 2 13.

    Hey may your wedding be blessed in every way.

    #3554
     NickHassan 
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    Hi I am,
    Roman 10.9 is the most used and abused scripture in the New Testament.
    If you read through both Chapters 9 and 10 you will see that Paul is talking about and to the Jewish OT believers. He pleads with them to take the next step and fulfill their faith by accepting the Messiah, Jesus.
    Then look to Romans 10 and note Joel is quoted. Joel is an endtimes prophecy. It is about the Day of the Lord. Only then will these promises be completely fulfilled. Only then will simply calling on the Lord will be sufficient for salvation as there will be none to baptise as they will have been raptured. Then will be the time prophesied in Zech when the jews will look upon Him they have pierced and repent.
    So what of Romans 10.9? It is a true word but it's application is when the other signs mentioned in Joel occur-the changes in the sun and moon etc.
    That is my view and explains to me why it is a stand alone verse that seems to conflict with the general teachings of the Word but I am open to learn.

    #3555
     Sammo 
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    Quote (max2extreme @ Oct. 14 2004,10:57)
    I pose a question to you…If baptism is an absolute necessity, what do you say about Luke 23:40-42 where one of the other 2 crucified with Jesus recognized Jesus as his sole savior and repented, and jesus forgave him and said the thief will see him in heaven?


    Another perspective :)

    #6410
     NickHassan 
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    Hi,
    trettep has a theory about baptism that deserves some lightweight commonsense analysis. His theory is that unless specifed baptism in the NT is of the Spirit. Let's let scripture interpret itself on this matter.

    So the greek root word is baptizo[907]-to dip, sink or wash.

    The first time it appears in the NT it is in relationship to John the baptist.
    Mt 3.1
    ” I baptise you with water..” also shown in Lk 3.16 and Jn 1.26. Jn 1.33, Acts 1.5, 11 .16, Jn 3.23,

    So the first usage of the word baptism is associated with water baptism. It is reinforced as the baptisms are done in water in various locations-eg
    “in the river Jordan” in Mt 3.6, Mk 1.5,1.9, Mt 3.13.

    Now the work of John later is shown without the word “water” or the word “Jordan”.
    “Tax gatherers also came to be baptised by him” Lk 3.12, Lk 7.29-30, Acts 13.24,Lk 20.4 ,Mk 11 30 etc.etc

    So the usage of the word 'baptism' without the word 'water' is still established to mean 'baptism with water'.

    Now we know from scripture such as Heb 6.1-2 that there are other baptisms. John the Baptist said about Jesus that
    “He will baptise you with the Holy Spirit” Mt 3.11, Lk 3.16, Jn 1.26.

    So this is the same word qualified with new words to change it's meaning. It compares to water baptism but needs the words “in the Holy Spirit” to show it is different.

    Now the word “baptism” is used many times in other scriptures and in some cases is qualified again to specify baptism in the Spirit. Should we assume that all that do not specify water baptism have that meaning?

    No. Without the qualifying words it reverts to it's original established meaning of water baptism, whether or not the word “water” is specified. If it did not then no one could ever tell which baptism [water, Spirit or Fire] applies thereby allowing doctrines like trettep's to be propounded.

    That would mean our God was a God of confusion.

    Anyone who knows the Word of God knows that is not true.

    #6426
     trettep 
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    No trettep's preaching is about the word baptism meaning “submerged” every where the word is used just like most concordances interpret it. Whether its submerged into the Holy Spirit, Water, or Fire. It still means “submerged” or “to make fully whelmed” “immersed” etc..

    Paul

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