Fallen angels

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  • #3764
     Sammo 
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    Hi guys

    Thanks for your posts. I won't be able to do them justice until about Tuesday, but I can offer just one quick thought.

    Quote
    what about the parable of the sheep and the goats where jesus says, he will say to those on his left, depart from me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and HIS angels? even if you read this as the adversiary and his messengers, it is still a pronoun… and it still indicates that there are demons – or whatever you want to call them.


    How would you prove that “his angels” here are demons? (Other than, what else could they be.) What is the evidence really of the relationship between demons and the devil? If you had had no contact at all with Christianity before, and then read the Bible for the first time, would you necessarily come to this conclusion?

    Thanks for your thoughts guys, sorry I won't be round for a couple of days.

    Have a good weekend,
    Sam

    #3775
     Anonymous
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    hey sam,

    well… i suppose messengers could be humans… but your reference to idols/demons is a bit inaccurate i think – because paul says, that there are many gods (theos) and many lords (kurios) whether in heaven or on earth, but TO US there is one god (theos)… and one lord (kurios). it is the same word used for god as gods, and for lord as lords. this seems fairly straight forward to me, and fairly indicative of supernatural beings other than (and against) god. you could call them demons (deimos) as paul does, or evil spirits (pheuma) as jesus does, or spirits (pneuma) not of god, as john does… but the fact that they use these terms seems to suggest the existence of demons – at least to me.

    granted, pneuma could be translated as power or knowledge… but to say that evil spirits (pneuma) do not exist, would also be to throw in doubt the existence of the holy spirit because this is translated from hagios (meaning most holy, or aweful) and pneuma – should we then translate this as “terrible power”?. it kind of sets a precedent…

    again, i don't care if something disagrees with the common belief, but i think in this instance there are a lot of things that need explaining…

    cheers,

    nate.

    #3776
     t8 
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    Some scriptures that mention evil spirits.

    Judges 9:23
    God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the citizens of Shechem, who acted treacherously against Abimelech.

    Notice the word “who”.

    Matthew 10:1
    He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil[ 10:1 Greek unclean] spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

    Evil spirits is distinguished from disease and sickness. They are often the cause, not the actual thing that they cause.

    Matthew 12:43
    “When an evil[ 12:43 Greek unclean] spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it.

    These spirits are persons. Does a sickness seek rest?

    Mark 1:23
    Just then a man in their synagogue who was possessed by an evil[ 1:23 Greek unclean; also in verses 26 and 27] spirit cried out,

    This spirit cried out……

    Mark 3:11
    Whenever the evil[ 3:11 Greek unclean; also in verse 30] spirits saw him, they fell down before him and cried out, “You are the Son of God.”

    These spirits spoke for themselves and knew that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. To know this surely suggests a mind and to speak shows us that these minds can express themselves.

    What kind of sickness could do this?

    Mark 9:25
    When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the evil[ 9:25 Greek unclean] spirit. “You deaf and mute spirit,” he said, “I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.”

    How does a deaf and mute state come out of a person. This is not a sickness, rather the result of something not functioning properly. If some thing that doesn't function properly came out of a person, then it would never work again. If we see the spirit as a person/mind, then we can see it as the root cause and once that was removed the normal functions of the person were restored. Not conclusive I know, but just another pointer.

    Acts 19:15
    the evil spirit answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?”

    What manner of sickness can say those words. Again the scripture shows us that these spirits are persons who can speak.

    Ephesians 6:12
    For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

    How can we have victory of the spirtual forces and powers if we do not see them for what they are?

    #3777
     t8 
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    Some verses that use the word demon/s.

    Matthew 8:31
    The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.”

    Only minds can beg. Forces of nature do not say things like this.

    Matthew 9:34
    But the Pharisees said, “It is by the prince of demons that he drives out demons.”

    A prince or principality is a person with authority.

    Mark 1:34
    and Jesus healed many who had various diseases. He also drove out many demons, but he would not let the demons speak because they knew who he was.

    Sammo, you asked the following question:
    If you had had no contact at all with Christianity before, and then read the Bible for the first time, would you necessarily come to this conclusion?

    Well Mark 1:34 above would suggest to me that demons are a type of being or person.

    Luke 4:41
    Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ.

    Demons speaking again. They also have knowledge.

    Luke 9:1
    When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases,

    Demons and sickness are distinguished in this verse.

    Luke 11:18
    If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebub.

    Satan – himself. Both him and self show a person.

    1 Corinthians 10:20
    No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.

    You do not offer gifts to a thing and to participate with demons means to join with them in their actions.

    1 Corinthians 10:21
    You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons.

    Just as the LORD is a person/being (I AM) , so are demons.

    1 Timothy 4:1
    The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

    Demons can teach…

    Again if I read the Bible with no previous teaching, I would be sure that demons and evil spirits are beings or persons of a kind because they speak and know certain things. In addition to that they acknowledged the truth that Jesus is the Son of God. What force or sickness has a mind to know such things. And anything that has a mind has got to be an identity/person/being/living thing of some kind. Does the law of gravity know my name or does cancer know that Jesus is the Son of God? Who ever knows has knowledge. Knowledge can only be understood by something living, something that has a mind.

    #3778
     t8 
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    If the following verse is about Satan, then he is an angel.

    Ezekiel 28:16
    Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.

    Cherubs are a type of angel. They appear to have 2 wings. See (1 Kings 6:24, 1 Kings 6:27, 2 Chronicles 3:11)
    Seraphs are another type of angel. They have 6 wings. See (Isaiah 6:2)

    We know that the guardian cherub fell. We also know that Michael is a chief angel. Perhaps he is seraphum???

    #3779
     Dinah 
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    very interesting topic…….If you want to know all about the fallen angels,,,,,,who they were,,,,,,and where they are…….read the book of Enoch………AND ENOCH WALKED WITH GOD FOR 365 YEARS,,,,,,AND CALLED HIM BEFORE HIS TIME……….Nothing in the Scriptures can compare with this most amazing account of ………WHO GOD…….ANGELS……AND SATAN ………ARE.

    #3780
     ringo111 
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    Quote
    I am a Christadelphian – please click here to learn about my faith

    Get away while you can sammo, Christadelphians are a seperatist movment. I now see why you cannot see the scriptures, when it flat out says. “cast out Demons!” and “satan and his angels”. Our adversary the devil, roams around like a roaring lion. Not to mention many who witness Demons in real life. That is a christadelphian teaching isnt it?? That Satan does not exist?? You would have had many sermons on it, and within your group, im sure, people will be violently or activly opposed to your questioning. If anyone believe's that satan does not exist, they are doing satans work. For, If you believe satan isnt real, wont make him less able to destroy you. The Satanists are also instructed to tell everyone that satan does not exist. think about it, If people arnt aware, than he can be more explicit, and destructive. Please look at What T8 has written.

    For I rang up the christadelphians group a couple of times, and talked to people, and I found theyre beliefs very ignorant. Allthough they egknowledge the trinity is a lie. They also believe Jesus was not in heaven before he was on earth. Which is an obvious lie. For Jesus said that he was before abraham.

    John 17:5
    And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

    John 17:24
    “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

    They keep they're main meetings in secret, So it leaves me to wonder what degenerate practises they have?? From what i can see, they preach diss-unity between all believers, and im dont aggree with that at all. For trinity believers, Still believe that Jesus is the christ, They just have additional incorrect teaching.

    If i ever do go to a meeting, it will probably be to rebuke them for theyre ignorant belief structure. Which wont go down well. You're most probably better off going to a mainstream church that isnt labeled a cult. Ive sent emails about theyre obvious flaws in belief, But no reply, So sad that another group that teaches lies and seperation of believers is around.

    Seems to me, that maybe the christadelphian group was made by some satanists. They are instructed, to take over churches, be ministers and such. so yer, wouldnt suprise, me. Seen as it is a main satanic rule, to make everyone but themselves believe that satan does not exist.

    #3781
     Sammo 
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    Hi Ringo

    Quote
    They keep they're main meetings in secret


    That's not true. Anyone's quite welcome to come along.

    Quote
    You're most probably better off going to a mainstream church that isnt labeled a cult.


    Well, as I think nate has pointed out, just being mainstream doesn't necessarily make you right. Also bear in mind that, as an anti-trinitarian, you too would belong to a “cult”, if you found a group that shared your beliefs. So join the club :)

    I promise I'll read what t8 has written, but I've got quite a backlog to catch up on!

    Take care,
    Sam

    #3782
     Sammo 
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    Hi nate, Is 1:18, t8,

    Thanks for your thoughtful responses, I think there's a lot to think about.

    I'm going to suggest laying aside demons for the moment, and just dealing with satan/the devil – does that sound ok? There's only so much I can write at once, and I think it will be easier to keep track of with a narrower topic anyway. I'm happy to discuss demons later, or first if you'd rather.

    If that's ok, I'll hope to answer your posts properly sometime within the next couple of days – I have a few pressing things on at uni just now. Sorry for the delay.

    God bless
    Sam

    #3783
     Anonymous
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    hey, take your time – rushing things only leads to confusion…

    #3785
     Sammo 
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    Hi nate

    OK – here are some thoughts on satan and the devil :angry:

    Quote (nate @ Sep. 02 2004,00:31)
    what about the parable of the sheep and the goats where jesus says, he will say to those on his left, depart from me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and HIS angels? even if you read this as the adversiary and his messengers, it is still a pronoun… and it still indicates that there are demons – or whatever you want to call them.


    This passage doesn't preach an immortal fallen angel – you'd have to infer that from other passages. Maybe it's speaking metaphorically of the wicked, or maybe Jesus does have a particular “slanderer” in mind – I don't know – but I don't see that this passage can be used to support an immortal fallen angel. I don't want to get on to demons, but I also think the fact that demons are the “angels” of the devil will need some proving too.

    Quote (nate @ Sep. 02 2004,00:31)
    or when the adversiary tempted jesus in the wilderness? these temptations weren't the kind that an ordinary human could offer. and why would god say, all this i will give to you if you will worship me… because it is god who we worship – this just doesn't make sense… the only other option i can find is that it was the devil – the same for whom the eternal fire was prepared…


    Well, similarly, this passage just doesn't preach an immortal fallen angel dedicated to the demise of man. So far as I can see, this passage strengthens the orthodox case for the devil only when approached with orthodox preconceptions. Personally, there are two alternative interpretations of this passage that I'd entertain:

    • the devil here is the personification of Jesus' own desires. The Bible says that temptation comes from within (James 1:13-15, Mark 7:20-23, Jeremiah 17:9)
    • the devil was the high priest. It's not so silly as it first sounds, but I'd have to find my notes – I can get back to you on this if you like.

    Quote (nate @ Sep. 02 2004,00:31)
    there's also the war in heaven where michael and his angels fight the dragon (rev 12:7) – this says that not only is the dragon in heaven, but also that both michael and the dragon had angels, indicating to me that the heavenly host are not the only supernatural beings.


    Neither does this passage preach that the devil is an immortal fallen angel – once again, you first have to approach it with this preconception for it to strengthen that belief.

    What about the devil being cast out of heaven – is that described here? Several points:

    • When exactly was the devil cast out of heaven? Most people would say before Genesis 3. Yet the events of Revelation 12 are incontrovertibly thousands of years after creation (Revelation 1:1). There's a big inconsistency here.
    • Is this passage literal, or figurative? For instance, Revelation 12:1 describes “a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars”. It's this same “heaven” that the dragon is cast out of. Clearly the passage is figurative – the entire book of Revelation is a book of symbol – in which case this isn't the literal heaven where God dwells. Incidentally, Jesus prays “Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” (Matthew 6:10). If this really is the scene in heaven, then spare us here on earth!

    Quote (nate @ Sep. 02 2004,00:31)
    personally i have no problem with orthodox belief being wrong – i don't believe in the trinity docrine, but this is because the bible is very vague in that regard, so when jesus says, the devil (or adversiary, or whatever) and HIS angels (or messengers, or whatever), it makes a fairly definite impression on my thinking.


    Sure, the word devil is definitely in the Bible, no one denies that. But where is an immortal fallen angel is preached?

    Cheers,
    Sam

    #3786
     Sammo 
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    Hi Is 1:18

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 02 2004,03:19)
    I agree with Nate's sentiments on the Satan issue – for me he is clearly portrayed as a specific and unique spiritual entity, a leader of demons. I believe the Bible teaches that he has access to both heaven and earth until some time during the tribulation when he will be kicked out for good (Rev 12:7-10).


    I think the real question here is: is Satan an immortal fallen angel? It's this passage that's most often used to prove that he is, yet you're placing this event in the future

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 02 2004,03:19)
    You write:

    Quote
    I believe that Paul clearly teaches that God has no supernatural opposition. I think Paul shows us that demons were false pagan gods.

    I agree that God doesnt have supernatural opposition. He alone is infinately powerful and therefore His authority cannot be threatened in any tangible way. However, I disagree with your idea on Paul's views:

    “….that you may be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places” Eph 6:11-13.

    I can't see any reference to idols here – he is clearly teaching us that an evil spiritual realm exists (including a scheming devil), and it has our worst interests at heart.


    Well, I think Paul doesn't just say that idols (aka demons – 1 Corinthians 10:20-28) don't oppose God, he says that they're nothing (1 Corinthians 8:4). So I'd say either there are demons, and there is an evil spirit realm, or there is nothing, which is what I think Paul clearly says.

    So what about Ephesians 6:12? I wouldn't be dogmatic, but I understand this verse as saying something like “we don't have to worry about people – we have to worry about whole institutions”. Reasons for this:

    • “Rulers” and “powers” are secular terms that just describe people in authority (eg “magistrates and powers” in Luke 12:11 is the same phrase).
    • “world” is the Greek aiōn, which is to me much more convincingly translated “age” in this context, as in the NKJV etc: see http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir….tml#12. “The rulers of the darkness of this age” (NKJV) need have no spirit-world overtones – I take it as just meaning those in authority in this (metaphorically) dark world.
    • As for “spiritual forces of wickedness in heavenly places”? Well, are these “heavenly places” literally heaven? Definitely this can be taken figuratively as is clear from Ephesians 3:10…

      Quote
      God hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus


      Do we literally sit in heaven? No we don't – hence I'd much prefer a figurative interpretation. Maybe heaven here can be taken as a symbol of authority, as the heavens are above the earth – there are some good verses to back this up, but I'd have to check out my notes at home and get back to you (or just edit this post).

    This interpretation also avoids what I see as directly contradicting verses like Romans 13:1…

    Quote
    Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.


    If there were an evil spirit world, then is it really ordained by God? Does God commission demons? I come back to 1 Corinthians 8:4 – I believe Paul quite clearly says that demons are nothing – every bit as non-existent as all the false gods throughout the entire Bible, of which there are many.

    I believe the Bible clearly teaches that temptation comes from within us (James 1:13-15, Mark 7:20-23, Jeremiah 17:9), not from an external supernatural being dedicated to our destruction. And especially not from a fallen angel!

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 02 2004,03:19)
    Sammo, Im enjoying your post though, its good to read opposing viewpoints – even if I cant agree with them.
    Bless you


    Thanks, I really appreciate the constructive atmosphere :)

    God bless,
    Sam

    #3784
     Anonymous
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    hey sam,

    regarding the temptation of jesus… i looked up your references for the “temptation comes from within” statement, and this is what i think:

    jeremiah 17:9 says that the heart is desparately wicked, but says nothing about temptation… i don't think we can apply this to jesus, because he could not have been wicked. mark 7:20-23 says that our thoughts defile us, and that defilement comes from within… it doesn't say that the source of temptation comes from within. and again jesus could not be the perfect sacrifice if he was defiled. james 1:13-15 certainly says that temptation comes from the lure of our own evil desires… but i think these lures are everywhere, not just within us… from this i conclude that defilement comes from within in, because the heart of man is wicked above all things, and that god cannot tempt us, but to say then that jesus was tempted from within seems to indicate that jesus' heart is also wicked – which i protest!

    on the other hand, jesus says in luke 22:31-32 that satan had asked to have the disciples to sift like wheat, but that jesus had prayed that their faith would not fail. in verse 40 and again in 46 he tells them to pray that they would not be overcome by temptation. this seems to suggest that the temptor in this case was satan. again the prayer that jesus gives the disciples says, do not lead us into temptation, or i think more accurately from a quick perusal of the greek – guide us not towards temptation. now, as the james verse points out, god cannot tempt us, but if he can guide us towards or away from temptation, then temptation must not always (if ever) come from within – but must act on the evil that is within us…

    as to the temptor being the high priest – firstly this would dispell the theory that temptation comes from within; secondly, jesus was unknown to the priests and pharisees at this time; and thirdly, all the kingdoms of the world were not the high priest's to give…

    sam, i want to know if you have really looked into the things you have said – because while they seem to me to be well-formulated arguments, they're kind of twisted… i have heard the concept before that satan and the demons are just metaphors, but as far as i've been able to establish from a biblical perspective, the arguments either don't make sense (like the above) or don't support the conclusion… as tolstoy said, two plus two still doesn't equal five.

    you see, i'm not even sure i understand what you're trying to say – initially i thought that you said you didn't believe in demons or the devil, except as metaphors, which is why i mentioned the possessive pronoun from the “devil and his angels” verse, indicating to me that they were very real… but now you seem to be saying that you do believe in the devil (though not in demons), but you don't believe he is a fallen angel… is this right?

    how you interpret luke 10:18 where jesus says, i saw satan fall like lightening from heaven. (incidently, in the previous verse the apostles say, even the demons submit to us in your name)

    i need some conclusive evidence if i'm to agree with you, and so far the arguments have been full… of something, but not what you seem to be trying to conclude… whereas, in the overwhelming number of scriptures t8 has provided – jesus not only cast demons out, but spoke directly to them, and talked of them. if you can't believe jesus' very words, you may as well throw the whole book out!

    this isn't to say that i'm sure of my beliefs, but that my beliefs (limited as they are) are founded on what the scriptures say, and my understanding of that…

    cheers,

    nate.

    #3787
     Is 1:18 
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    Quote
    So what about Ephesians 6:12? I wouldn't be dogmatic, but I understand this verse as saying something like “we don't have to worry about people – we have to worry about whole institutions”. Reasons for this:

    • “Rulers” and “powers” are secular terms that just describe people in authority (eg “magistrates and powers” in Luke 12:11 is the same phrase).

    Hi Sammo, hope you're well.
    I will have more time on the weekend to answer all the points in your post. There is one thing I want to write tonight though. The word “powers” in Eph 6:12 is the Greek word exousia and it occurs only once in the whole NT. I can't see how you can compare it to Rom 13:1 and Luke 12:11. A different word is used and the contexts are radically different.
    Take care

    #3788
     ringo111 
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    Please everyone take warning, Samo, You are doing the work of lies, of Satan, if you believe that satan is not a being in controll of angels, who is in opposition to GoD, and makes all efforts to make most people rebelious against theyre purpose.

    Jude 1:9
    But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

    How absolutely obvious, It is you who has been fooled, and anyone that is not aware of the spiritual bounds. Of coarse none of you as christadelphians would see demons, for satan would not want that revieled, for you are doing his work. And any that would, it would be dismissed, ignored or repressed, and anyone who had seen the truth, would at first tell, then after rejection leave. That is why christadelphians still hold to that belief, much the same as the mainstream believe the trinity is real, except, you can see satan. and it is so obvious.

    John 8
    42Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

    Now. Jesus equates GOD as a father of people. But then says, No you are not a child of GoD. You Are a child of…. SATAN!!! For he was a murderer from… when??? when was he a murderer??? oh, only from the beggining!!! Father of all lies!!! Notice how he says HE. Now, when was the first recorded murder?? the deception of adam and eve. They died there. And even if you would call that not a murder. Then what about immediatly after with cain and able. Satan was before that, according to Jesus Testimony.

    Was Jesus GoD??? of coarse not!! But he was called (god with us) Now, the same with satan who is called, (accuser) Now, this(accuser) does more than accuse!!! so it cannot be said that a peson who (accuses) is satan. Passivly without action (accuser) satan entered Judus, not that Judas made an act and then was called (accuser) because of the act. Seccondly, (accuser) kills and lies, and is a father of the people, and satan(accuser) is not the people who lie and murder. Which was bueatifully put by Jesus.

    Now. As for the final rebuke, in the john 8. I wonder?? Do you ask god to test your faith?? Do you ask for your perception of reality to be taken away, and to recieve what GoD has for you?? Do you not hear GoD saying to his people, Beware of satan He has been murdering from the beggining, he is the father of lies??? because you do not belong to GoD?? Please ask GoD about that one.

    Luke 22:3
    Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.

    Direct possession of a disciple. how obvious. Please wake up. and forsake the delusion, that will make your downfall serious indeed.

    Now as for your claim of christadelphians not meeting in secret. They have closed doors meetings. One for everyone, then one closed doors meetings. They advertise that they have closed door meetings, to try and draw in the curious. That is around the newcastle region.

    Apart from all that ive written, You mock me!!! With your belief that satan does not have angels, you mock me!!! For i suffered for 9 years of demons tormenting me. Please take note. Please question what youve learned. And in the name of Jesus, as the new testiment says. Jude “the demons shudder”

    So many- how about the pigs, The disciples asking Jesus why they could not drive out the demon, The unbelieving Jews that fooled a few demons, but then the demons turned and said, “we know paul(or another disciple), but as for you we do not know) and the demon possesed man beat them.

    Stop doing the work of satan. Im sure if you do not, GoD will weigh it heavily against you. For you make men stumble by such an extreme ignorance. I would rather a trinity believer, who accknoledged the destroyer satan, than somone of your belief of satan. For it is extreamly ignorant and repressive, and oppressive to people, who know the truth. You will have many people bound by satan, and you will not be able to see.

    It is such a heavy burdon Having demons torment you. And you would tell such people that they are crazy? unwell? a sideffect of a modern life? Such people are conforming to the ignorance of the world that satan will dominate untill the day of purification by fire.

    #3789
     Sammo 
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    Hi Is 1:18

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ Sep. 09 2004,03:32)
    The word “powers” in Eph 6:12 is the Greek word exousia and it occurs only once in the whole NT. I can't see how you can compare it to Rom 13:1 and Luke 12:11. A different word is used and the contexts are radically different.
    Take care

    Are you sure? I'm pretty sure there are about 100 exousias in the NT. Trust me, it's the same two words as in Luke 12:11, which is definitely a secular context.

    I think you mean “kosmokrator”, translated “rulers” in the KJV.

    Cheers,
    Sam

    #3790
     Sammo 
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    Hi t8

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 03 2004,02:54)
    If the following verse is about Satan, then he is an angel.

    Ezekiel 28:16
    Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.


    Nowhere in this passage is Satan mentioned. It's demonstrably speaking of the king of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:12).

    Sam

    #3791
     Sammo 
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    Hi t8

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 03 2004,02:35)
    Luke 11:18
    If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebub.

    Satan – himself. Both him and self show a person.


    Beelzebub is unquestionably an Ekronite god (2 Kings 1:2). Did Beelzebub exist? Did Beelzebub have any power? Judging from Baal's performance in 1st Kings 18, I'd strongly suggest not. Consider what Isaiah says about the gods of surrounding nations in chapter 37:

    Quote
    18 Of a truth, LORD, the kings of Assyria have laid waste all the nations, and their countries,
    19 And have cast their gods into the fire: for they were no gods, but the work of men’s hands, wood and stone: therefore they have destroyed them.
    20 Now therefore, O LORD our God, save us from his hand, that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that thou art the LORD, even thou only.


    The gods of surrounding nations had no power to save them – because they simply didn't exist, they were nothing more than idols of wood and stone.

    Incidentally, I believe that's why Paul uses demons and idols interchangably in 1 Corinthians 10:20-28 – because the foreign deities worshipped by pagans were nothing more than idols. They simply didn't exist, they were “nothing” (1 Corinthians 8:4).

    Thank you for your posts t8, I hope to respond more fully in time :)

    Take care,
    Sam

    #3792
     ringo111 
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    Sammo- Kindly read my last post.

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 03 2004,02:35)
    Luke 11:18
    If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebub.

    Satan – himself. Both him and self show a person.

    Quote

    Beelzebub is unquestionably an Ekronite god (2 Kings 1:2). Did Beelzebub exist? Did Beelzebub have any power? Judging from Baal's performance in 1st Kings 18, I'd strongly suggest not. Consider what Isaiah says about the gods of surrounding nations in chapter 37:

    When they spoke lies, Jesus rebuiked them, and said. You do not know what you talk about. If beelzabub had not been a member of Satans angels, then Jesus would not have continued and tied in Beelzubub with Satan. The Jews did not, they only said by the prince of Demons(satans angels) , then Jesus expands and says.

    Luke 11:18
    If Satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand? I say this because you claim that I drive out demons by Beelzebub.

    So there you have it, Jesus refutes your claim that beelzabub is not a demon of Satan, Because Jesus Made that charge himself. The Jews only Charged him with the name of Beelzabub. It was Jesus who egknoledged beelzabub, and said that Satan was the real ruler of beelzabub “how can his Kingdom stand”.

    It was not the Jews ignorance, But Jesus' knowledge that reveals that Beezlabub is a demon, Under the rule of Satan.

    **************************************

    Hi t8

    Quote (t8 @ Sep. 03 2004,02:54)
    If the following verse is about Satan, then he is an angel.

    Ezekiel 28:16
    Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.

    Quote

    Nowhere in this passage is Satan mentioned. It's demonstrably speaking of the king of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:12).

    Sam

    I tottally agree, If you read the earlier posts. You will see that I have examined these, and found many inconsistancies.
    *Satan according to the myth,

    1- was in GoDs presence before he rebelled, the king of tyre was not

    2- satan wanted to overthrow GoD, the king of tire only thought he could be seated with the GoDs.

    3- satan has many followers and kings dont mock him they dont know about him.(only very few) All nations see the man of tyre, mock him, and has no followers.

    If you would bother to read my last post, You will see Jesus said that satan was a murderer from the beggining, and the father (head) of lies. So when cain killed able, Satan was allready around, when he lied, satan was allready around.

    #3793
     Sammo 
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    Hi nate,

    Quote (nate @ Sep. 09 2004,02:45)
    regarding the temptation of jesus… i looked up your references for the “temptation comes from within” statement, and this is what i think:

    jeremiah 17:9 says that the heart is desparately wicked, but says nothing about temptation… i don't think we can apply this to jesus, because he could not have been wicked. mark 7:20-23 says that our thoughts defile us, and that defilement comes from within… it doesn't say that the source of temptation comes from within. and again jesus could not be the perfect sacrifice if he was defiled. james 1:13-15 certainly says that temptation comes from the lure of our own evil desires… but i think these lures are everywhere, not just within us… from this i conclude that defilement comes from within in, because the heart of man is wicked above all things, and that god cannot tempt us, but to say then that jesus was tempted from within seems to indicate that jesus' heart is also wicked – which i protest!

    I don't have a problem with saying that Jesus was tempted from within – the important thing to me is that despite temptation, Jesus never did sin. This is what James says:

    Quote
    14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

    Hebrews 4:15 says that Jesus was “tempted in all points like as we are” (yet without sin). Only if that temptation had “conceived” would Jesus have sinned, which never happened. James quite clearly says that man is drawn away of his own lust – I don't see how else you want to read that.

    Some people think this demeans Jesus. Far far from it – I find it amazing to think that Jesus overcame every single temptation in his life, even when they were nailing him to the cross and “he reviled not again” – that would have taken so much effort on his part. Hence what Paul says (Hebrew 4:15 again):

    Quote
    For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

    Quote (nate @ Sep. 09 2004,02:45)
    on the other hand, jesus says in luke 22:31-32 that satan had asked to have the disciples to sift like wheat, but that jesus had prayed that their faith would not fail. in verse 40 and again in 46 he tells them to pray that they would not be overcome by temptation. this seems to suggest that the temptor in this case was satan.


    But once again, this verse says absolutely nothing about a supernatural fallen angel. I don't see any barrier to reading this as sin personified, or maybe Jesus had a human “adversary” in mind?

    Quote (nate @ Sep. 09 2004,02:45)
    again the prayer that jesus gives the disciples says, do not lead us into temptation, or i think more accurately from a quick perusal of the greek – guide us not towards temptation. now, as the james verse points out, god cannot tempt us, but if he can guide us towards or away from temptation, then temptation must not always (if ever) come from within – but must act on the evil that is within us…


    Sure, someone else can initiate a temptation, but it has to play on our inward lusts to make an impact, in the order given in James 1. However, to say that all temptations are initiated by someone else would just be silly. To me, a supernatural devil seems strikingly absent from James' summary of temptation.

    Quote (Guest @ Sep. 09 2004,02:45)
    as to the temptor being the high priest – firstly this would dispell the theory that temptation comes from within; secondly, jesus was unknown to the priests and pharisees at this time; and thirdly, all the kingdoms of the world were not the high priest's to give…


    No, I don't think that would dispell temptation coming from within. Whoever the tempter was, what he said was only tempting because it played on Jesus' inward desires. He hadn't eaten for 40 days – hence making stones bread played on a very understandable inward desire of Jesus. How do you know that Jesus was unknown to the priests? They may have even been at his baptism (Matthew 3:7,13). And if the priest did realise who Jesus was, then maybe he wanted Jesus onside because that way he could rule the world. Frankly, that's a big maybe, and I regret even mentioning it…

    Quote (Guest @ Sep. 09 2004,02:45)
    you see, i'm not even sure i understand what you're trying to say – initially i thought that you said you didn't believe in demons or the devil, except as metaphors, which is why i mentioned the possessive pronoun from the “devil and his angels” verse, indicating to me that they were very real… but now you seem to be saying that you do believe in the devil (though not in demons), but you don't believe he is a fallen angel… is this right?


    OK, I believe that satan is a word that means “adversary”, hence its use to describe a righteous angel (Numbers 22:22), men (1 Kings 11:14, Matthew 16:23) and God himself (2 Samuel 24:1, 1 Chronicles 21:1).

    I believe devil is a word that means “slanderer”, hence its use to describe women (1 Timothy 3:11, Titus 2:3), men (2 Timothy 3:3) and Judas (John 6:70).

    I believe that both words are sometimes used to personify sin (eg compare Hebrews 2:14 and Romans 6:23). This isn't a unique idea – wisdom is personified too.

    What I don't believe is the existence of a supernatural tempter, an evil angel fallen from heaven.

    I believe that demons are the false pagan gods that people in the 1st century attributed illnesses to.

    Quote (Guest @ Sep. 09 2004,02:45)
    how you interpret luke 10:18 where jesus says, i saw satan fall like lightening from heaven. (incidently, in the previous verse the apostles say, even the demons submit to us in your name)


    Several points:

    • It doesn't say “I saw Satan fall from heaven”, it says “I saw Satan fall as lightning from heaven”. It's a simile that emphasises that Satan fell swiftly – not a description of a literal casting out of heaven.
    • Even if Satan was cast out of heaven, it happened around 30AD, thousands of years after Genesis 3. This is just as big an
      inconsistency as in Revelation 12.

    I would say that the context of Luke 10:18 is that the disciples were given power to “heal the sick” (Luke 10:9). Disease is one of the symptoms of mortality – “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). This isn't to say that all disease is a punishment upon particular sins, but that we are all subject to mortality, because of sin. Christ was saying that seeing his disciples healing disease was the beginning of the end for the power of sin, personified as Satan, over humanity. In Luke 13:10-17 Jesus healed a woman who had “a spirit of infirmity eighteen years” (v11). But this same healing is described as “a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years” (v16). The healing of disease was the loosing of the binding power of sin and mortality.

    Quote (Guest @ Sep. 09 2004,02:45)
    i need some conclusive evidence if i'm to agree with you, and so far the arguments have been full… of something, but not what you seem to be trying to conclude… whereas, in the overwhelming number of scriptures t8 has provided – jesus not only cast demons out, but spoke directly to them, and talked of them. if you can't believe jesus' very words, you may as well throw the whole book out!


    When demons spoke to Jesus, whose mouth moved? I don't see this as more than an extension of the personification, and it also avoids contracting what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 8:4.

    Quote (Guest @ Sep. 09 2004,02:45)
    this isn't to say that i'm sure of my beliefs, but that my beliefs (limited as they are) are founded on what the scriptures say, and my understanding of that…


    OK then, this is what I'm after…

    • Evidence that the devil was once an angel
    • Evidence that the devil fell from heaven, just once, before Genesis 3.
    • An explanation of why satan is used to refer to a righteous angel, men and God himself, if satan is a proper noun for an immortal evil being.
    • An explanation of why the devil is used to refer to regular men and woman, if the devil is a proper noun for an immortal evil being.
    • An explanation of how James could possibly omit the devil from his summary of temptation.

    …and I think this list could be longer.

    I won't be round for a couple of days, but hope you have a good weekend.

    God bless,
    Sam

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