Bible

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  • #41918
     Anonymous
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    hey sam,

    Quote

    Should there be 66 books in the Bible? This is quite a cute little hint that the answer is yes: the book of Isaiah turned out to have 66 chapters, just like the Bible has 66 books. Isaiah is divided into two sections, the first 39 chapters being primarily to do with Israel, and the next 27 being primarily to do with the work of Jesus and the new covenant. How many books in the Old and New Testaments?!

    this is a bit tenuous, considering that chapters weren't added until after the time of jesus… moreover, chapters often end in the midst of a theme… also, the bible only has 66 books because we divide the books of samuel, kings and chronicles…

    actually, the “immutibility” of the bible is something which i've been questioning for a while now… for starters, we know that it has been altered, translated and interpreted in many ways… but also, i find the interpretation of “god breathed” as “infallible” a bit of a stretch – i mean, even paul says in places – this is my opinion, not from god. i think “god-breathed” means that the person writing, had the spirit in them… i don't know if this should be interpreted as meaning that the very words are holy, but that they're “useful for rebuking, correcting and edifying”…

    i have no problem calling both the old and new testament “scripture”, though i would not find it surprising if there were many other god-breathed “scriptures” outside the canonical works… i think these would be fairly recognisable in that the convey the same “spirit”…

    just a point though – i think 1 tim 5:18 is actually a reference to a deuteronomy passage about not muzzling the ox…

    btw. this is my opinion, not from god… hehehe…

    cheers,

    nate.

    #41919
     Sammo 
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    Hi nate

    Quote (nate @ Oct. 11 2004,22:45)
    this is a bit tenuous, considering that chapters weren't added until after the time of jesus… moreover, chapters often end in the midst of a theme… also, the bible only has 66 books because we divide the books of samuel, kings and chronicles…


    Yes, but nonetheless, that is the way it turned out, and I don't think God was indifferent to the translation of his word.

    But naturally not everyone's going to be impressed by that, and if you happen to be among those that aren't, I don't have a problem with that.

    But I like it :cool:

    Quote (nate @ Oct. 11 2004,22:45)
    actually, the “immutibility” of the bible is something which i've been questioning for a while now… for starters, we know that it has been altered, translated and interpreted in many ways…


    Yeah… but we've all got the tools to dig deeper behind passages for ourselves, if we're prepared to put the time in. Isn't that partly why Jesus spoke in parables, so that only those who went to effort to understand him, would? “It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.” (Proverbs 25:2)

    Quote (nate @ Oct. 11 2004,22:45)
    but also, i find the interpretation of “god breathed” as “infallible” a bit of a stretch – i mean, even paul says in places – this is my opinion, not from god.


    I not sure if that's really what he meant – you're thinking about 1 Corinthians 7?

    Quote (nate @ Oct. 11 2004,22:45)
    i have no problem calling both the old and new testament “scripture”, though i would not find it surprising if there were many other god-breathed “scriptures” outside the canonical works… i think these would be fairly recognisable in that the convey the same “spirit”…


    Yeah, that's an interesting thought – for instance Paul wrote letters that didn't make the Bible, but presumably they're no less spirit guided than anything else he wrote. I guess God had his reasons for choosing the books he did?

    Quote (nate @ Oct. 11 2004,22:45)
    just a point though – i think 1 tim 5:18 is actually a reference to a deuteronomy passage about not muzzling the ox…


    And so it is – but Paul's quoting from both Deuteronomy 25:4 and Luke 10:7.

    Quote (nate @ Oct. 11 2004,22:45)
    btw. this is my opinion, not from god… hehehe…


    LOL, very good :laugh:

    Sam

    #41920
     Anonymous
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    hey sam,

    Quote

    not sure if that's really what he meant – you're thinking about 1 Corinthians 7?

    yeh, that's the one… paul says, “to the married i give this command (not i, but the lord)…” but then later he says, “to the rest i say this (i, not the lord)…”

    now background to this: i think the corinthians asked paul a bunch of questions concerning marriage. paul answers them firstly as jesus did – a man must not divorce his wife – and being from jesus (as distinct from the law of moses, which says a man may divorce his wife) this is obviously from god (and paul may have had this directly from god)… but then he says (nate's paraphrase), as to the rest of the things you asked (concerning separation from an unbeliever, i think), god hasn't specifically told me, but i think you should continue to live with them if they are willing…

    this leads me to the conclusion that, while paul certainly had the spirit of god in him, he wasn't “possessed” as it were, and could obviously have written things that were his own opinion, rather than god's…

    Quote

    Yeah, that's an interesting thought – for instance Paul wrote letters that didn't make the Bible, but presumably they're no less spirit guided than anything else he wrote. I guess God had his reasons for choosing the books he did?

    perhaps… but as you said, it is the glory of god to conceal a thing, but the honour of kings to seek it out (and are we not kings and priests?)… what if the bible isn't “infallible”… doesn't that mean that we would be less reliant on the “letter” and more on the “spirit” – or seek less the “rhema” and more the “logos”? surely it couldn't hurt – even if he leads us right back to where we started??

    a couple of thoughts:

    paul said, “we see only in part”…

    …and john said that all the books of the world couldn't contain the things jesus said and did…

    cheers,

    nate.

    #41921
     Is 1:18 
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    Hi Sammo/Nate
    Sammo, I agree with you. To me God has clearly orchestrated the collection of books that make up the Bible as we know it. Its authenticity is validated by the consistency that runs through it, even though 40 odd authors were involved and it was written over thousands of years. It's clearly 'supernaturally engineered'. Have either of you read 'Cosmic Codes' by Chuck Missler? I recommend it if you ever find yourself doubting its inspiration.
    God Bless

    #41922
     Anonymous
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    hey is1:18,

    i haven't read much concerning the “cosmic code”… is it the prophecies in the numeric makeup of the bible? i remember someone telling me how the bible code predicted the assasination of some israeli prime minister… but my argument is that it's very easy to find “retrospective” prophecies… i'm sure they could do the same for the gita, or the quran… but what does this code tell us about the future? anything? and if so, should we believe what it said?

    i don't doubt the bible's inspiration – i doubt it's infallibility… i also doubt it's “completeness” or whatever… i think that there were probably a bunch of written testimonies of jesus' life, i think also that there probably a bunch of very helpful (god breathed) letters, but they either didn't survive or make it into the “canon” (the much pondered “q” being an excellent example, besides being a source)… but does it really matter? the fact that we have this canon – and the fact that it is called infallible – hasn't stopped people making mistakes (or even great “docrinal” errors), but my concern is that it has hindered people (to some extent) becoming spiritually discerning…

    do we need proof that the bible is true?

    just some thoughts…

    cheers,

    nate.

    #41923
     NickHassan 
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    Hi nate,
    The Old Testament is truth because Jesus confirmed it. He fulfilled it, quoted it and showed us the respect we should give it. Some verses are yet to be fulfilled concerning the Day of the Lord and His return.
    He did the works of His Father and His actions expressed God's mercy available- at all times from the God who is love. He also said “My word is truth”. His words and actions make up the Four Gospels.
    The teachings of the apostles were confirmed by God with signs and wonders. No word of theirs deserves any less respect than any other part of the Word of God because they walked with the Lord and were filled with the Spirit of God.

    If you believe in God and believe in the OT you must believe in Jesus as the OT witnessed to Him. If you believe in Jesus you must accept that the NT is truth as Jesus witnessed to that and equipped and sent out teachers in His Name to continue His testimony.

    Has man destroyed the reliability of the Word? Not the OT. There are very few examples known where changes have been made in the NT but they are well known and rare. They have not hidden the truth from serious bible students-only those who have fallen asleep.

    We were not expected to understand it anyway with our natural minds. Unlike the OT all believers who are saved and ask the Father can have the Holy Spirit indwelling and teaching them. Since the Holy Spirit wrote the bible then we can be helped to understand it too and need that help.

    The Holy Spirit also can help us recognise in other writings the Spirit of God speaking.

    The alternative of relying on natural insight and study alone to Understand God's way is futility.
    Jesus said” the wise man will build his house on Rock. That Rock is My teachings” We must believe in the Word more than in any human teacher and more than ourselves. It IS Truth.

    #41924
     Anonymous
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    hey nick,

    i agree with what you say… except…

    i believe that jesus is the word made flesh… i don't think that the written word could never compare with the person of jesus.

    i think that the spirit testifies to jesus… so although we can test the spirits against the word (to see if they are of god) ultimately the spirit must be more “real” to us than the letter – because it is experiential rather than referential… it is in the realm of our “psyche” rather than our “intellect”…

    jesus said, i am the way, the truth and the life… while we can come to know “of” jesus, through the gospels, etc… they are not “necessary” – what if we can't read? the written word has no “power” for the illiterate…

    moreover, faith comes through believing – first and foremost – and believing through the word of god… but is the word of god the bible, or does the bible “contain” the word of god? we know that jesus is the word made flesh, but where is it written that the bible (as we know it, or otherwise) is the words made text?

    seriously, a person may believe in jesus without ever reading the bible. a person may discern the spirit of god from other spirits, without ever having heard from the bible… yet, a man may know the bible back to front and not understand god at all…

    ultimately is it throught the bible that we know god, or in our heart?

    cheers,

    nate.

    #41925
     NickHassan 
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    Good points nate,
    When Peter spoke to the crowds in Acts 2 did he read from his bible? unlikely. When Paul wrote his letters did he have his bible nearby? unlikely. When Stephen gave his discourse in Acts 7 did he have his bible in hand? Very unlikely.Yet we quote them word for word as equally true as the rest of the bible. The Holy Spirit spoke and wrote through them as they rested in His power and their bible quotes were accurate. They were just vessels and we can confirm it was the work of the Spirit because they were reminded of the Word of God as promised in Jn 14.26. and Rev 19.10.We can be like that too.But we need to check rather than throw the book away as we have all met people convinced they are lead of the Spirit but they do not show the right evidence in their fruit. Paul ,in Acts 19, knew those who had received the Spirit would know what he meant -they would have experienced something new.
    Rom 10.17
    “Faith comes through HEARING and what is heard is the Word of Christ”
    The apostles preached and taught in the Spirit and got the result when the soil was ready. We have the huge advantage over those believers in having the written word as well to learn from. Those guys had to trust more and really put their faith in God. Their minds were not inactivated but submitted to the Spirit so they could think on their feet and argue their case in the Spirit.

    #41926
     t8 
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    Hi guys,

    I wrote a writing called 'Is the Bible the Word of God?'
    https://heavennet.net/answers/answer12.htm

    It is quite old and probably needs a rewrite. Perhaps if you are game to read it, you could point out some things that might need to be changed or improved.

    thx

    #41927
     NickHassan 
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    Hi t8,
    2Tim. 1.13
    “Take as a model of sound teaching what you have heard me say, in faith and love in Christ Jesus. Guard the rich deposit of faith with the help of the Holy Spirit who dwells within us”
    2 Tim 2 8.
    ” .but there is no chaining the Word of God”
    v14
    ” keep reminding them of these things and charge them before God to stop disputing about mere words”
    2 Tim 3.14 ”
    You , for your part must remain faithful to what you have learned and believed, because you know who your teachers were. Likewise from your infancy you have known the sacred Scriptures[OT],the source of the wisdom,which through faith in Jesus Christ leads to salvation.
    ALL SCRIPTURE is inspired of God and is useful for teaching -for reproof ,correction and training in holiness so that the man of God is fully competant and equipped for every good work”
    @ Tim 2.20
    “In every household there are vessels not only of Gold and silver but also of wood and clay ,some for distinguished and some for common use” This scripture applies to people but it also could apply to scripture. Some words are Gold such as the words of Jesus such as “you must be born again” Others are the expressed opinion of Paul or detail about times and places that are less vital.

    We know the Word is like a treasure buried in a field. But not all treasure is the same. Diamonds are more precious than emeralds,and they are more valuable than garnets.

    The newspaper records as faithfully as it can the previous day's events. But the written memories contained in the gospels and penned 20 or more years later are more reliable and true. That is the work of the Holy Spirit as is the written Word of God in it's entirety.

    The Word is all truth and every word is pure. It is peaceful and harmonious. It blesses and comforts and is wisdom. It oozes the Spirit of God as those who wrote it were filled with the Spirit to the extent that Peter's shadow falling on cloth could bring healing.

    It cannot be completely brought into man's natural intellect as even Peter found some of Paul's teaching obscure. We have never seen the Master but these words are as close as we will get to experience God till we do meet Him as these words will outlast our natural bodies.

    #41928
     Sammo 
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    Hi nate

    Sorry it took me a while to get back to you.

    Quote (nate @ Oct. 12 2004,23:17)
    yeh, that's the one… paul says, “to the married i give this command (not i, but the lord)…” but then later he says, “to the rest i say this (i, not the lord)…”
    .
    .
    this leads me to the conclusion that, while paul certainly had the spirit of god in him, he wasn't “possessed” as it were, and could obviously have written things that were his own opinion, rather than god's…


    This is an idea that I've heard suggested:

    • In 1 Cor 7:10, he quotes Jesus (“the Lord”).
    • In verse 25, he can't quote Jesus on this particular topic, because Jesus never dealt with it, but can give his own judgement.
    • Verse 40: “I think also that I have the Spirit of God” – it's worth listening to Paul, even when he can't quote Jesus, because Paul has the spirit.

    So in verse 25 Paul isn't saying “but this is just my idea”, but “even though I can't quote Jesus on this, this is what you should do because I'm guided by the Spirit”, or something like that. This is consistent with 1 Tim 3:16.

    The implication would be, that if Paul's letters weren't wholly inspired by God, then you could take or leave huge chunks of them, or the entire Bible, however you wished. I don't think God wants us to do that!

    Quote (nate @ Oct. 12 2004,23:17)
    what if the bible isn't “infallible”… doesn't that mean that we would be less reliant on the “letter” and more on the “spirit” – or seek less the “rhema” and more the “logos”? surely it couldn't hurt – even if he leads us right back to where we started??

    a couple of thoughts:

    paul said, “we see only in part”…

    …and john said that all the books of the world couldn't contain the things jesus said and did…


    This is 1 Corinthians 7:

    Quote
    8 ¶ Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.


    What do you think “that which is perfect” is?

    Lots of people do rely on Spirit to guide their religious understanding, but come to wildly different conclusions. I do believe that God guides us, and works in our lives – but if people who say they're guided by the Spirit really are, then why do they all disagree?

    There's a cool quote in Isaiah 8 that's relevant here:

    Quote
    20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.


    The written word was the test for truth in Isaiah's day, and I believe it still is today. It's also like the Bereans, who “searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11).

    Cheers,
    Sam

    #41929
     Anonymous
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    hey sam,

    Quote

    Verse 40: “I think also that I have the Spirit of God” – it's worth listening to Paul, even when he can't quote Jesus, because Paul has the spirit.

    i think it's also worth noting that paul says “i also” in other words, he's recognising that his readers have the spirit of god… in another place an apostle (john i think) says, you have no need that i should teach you, for you have the spirit of god. i find it compelling that the spirit of god leads us into all truth (as jesus said), and yet we approach the bible with a purely intellectual understanding, and say that it is infallible… (yet still we all disagree on what it says and means)…

    it is also interesting to note that the apostle above (?john) was speaking at a time before the “canon” was complete, and well before it was institutionalised…

    Quote

    What do you think “that which is perfect” is?

    jesus. what do you think?

    i know that many people think this is a reference to the nt canon… of course, that means that prophecy and knowledge no longer have a place in the world, and therefore neither would the spirit of god. but the book of revelations indicates that prophecy wil continue till the end (the two witnesses), so i presume that the bible can't be “that which is perfect”…

    Quote

    The written word was the test for truth in Isaiah's day, and I believe it still is today. It's also like the Bereans, who “searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11).

    i agree, to an extent… but in these circumstances, paul was talking to the jews about the prophecies pertaining to jesus and the new covenant, and this was solely dependant on the scriptures… however, i'm not saying that the writers of the bible (old and new testament) weren't inspired by the spirit of god, but that the same spirit which was in them is in us; that i don't believe the nt “canon” was meant to be a completition of the law and prophets or an addition to them, but that it was written by men who had the spirit of god… as i've said, i don't think it is perfect – but i do think it is good.

    cheers,

    nate.

    #41930
     Sammo 
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    Hi nate

    Quote (nate @ Oct. 19 2004,21:55)
    i think it's also worth noting that paul says “i also” in other words, he's recognising that his readers have the spirit of god… in another place an apostle (john i think) says, you have no need that i should teach you, for you have the spirit of god.


    Do you know where that is? I had a quick look but couldn't find it – one of those times when you don't quite know even part of the exact phrase, and so concordances aren't much use!

    Quote (nate @ Oct. 19 2004,21:55)
    i find it compelling that the spirit of god leads us into all truth (as jesus said), and yet we approach the bible with a purely intellectual understanding, and say that it is infallible… (yet still we all disagree on what it says and means)…


    But those who don't approach the Bible intellectually all disagree as well… :(

    I do think that religion shouldn't just be intellectual, and that our faith should change our heart – yet this faith only “cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17). Also, “wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word” (Psalm 119:9). Both our faith and our new life come straight out of God's word – I don't think we can underestimate the power of the Bible!

    Quote (nate @ Oct. 19 2004,21:55)

    Quote

    What do you think “that which is perfect” is?


    jesus. what do you think?

    i know that many people think this is a reference to the nt canon… of course, that means that prophecy and knowledge no longer have a place in the world, and therefore neither would the spirit of god. but the book of revelations indicates that prophecy wil continue till the end (the two witnesses), so i presume that the bible can't be “that which is perfect”…


    Yeah, I think it means the completed Bible, but I haven't spent too much time looking at it. The argument isn't that prophecy and knowledge are no longer important, but that the spirit gifts of prophecy and knowledge etc have been superceded by the Bible. Only a few in the congregations ever had those gifts, but now everyone can read God's word – possibly hence “that which is in part” being done away by “that which is perfect”.

    Actually the word for “perfect” might fit this quite well, as it seems to have connotations of completeness. Maybe as well as being complete because everyone could read it, Paul was saying that the gifts would pass away when the Bible was completed, which it almost was.

    Against “that which is perfect” being Jesus is that Joel (and others?) prophecy exactly the opposite – that in the last days when Jesus returns, there will be a fresh outpouring of spirit gifts (Joel 2:28 etc), not the cessation of them.

    Quote (nate @ Oct. 19 2004,21:55)

    Quote

    The written word was the test for truth in Isaiah's day, and I believe it still is today. It's also like the Bereans, who “searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11).

    i agree, to an extent… but in these circumstances, paul was talking to the jews about the prophecies pertaining to jesus and the new covenant, and this was solely dependant on the scriptures… however, i'm not saying that the writers of the bible (old and new testament) weren't inspired by the spirit of god, but that the same spirit which was in them is in us; that i don't believe the nt “canon” was meant to be a completition of the law and prophets or an addition to them, but that it was written by men who had the spirit of god… as i've said, i don't think it is perfect – but i do think it is good.


    I need to think about that :)

    Have a good long weekend (are you in New Zealand?)

    Sam

    #41931
     NickHassan 
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    Hi Sammo,
    The verse you are looking for is 1 Jn 2 .27
    The other time Paul seems to express an opinion is at the end of the discussion on woman's headdress in 1 Cor 11.
    The aware ness of the things of God remains limited by the limitations of our physical body and mind -which Paul seems to be alluding to in 1Cor 13 9-12.- and maybe our new body also has a mind that can contain the fullness of God's knowledge?and we become, as Heb 12.23, ” the spirits of just men made perfect”[also Phil 1.6,]
    Acts 2 .39 tell us that the promise of the Spirit is for all whom the Lord calls though the early and late rain promised Spirit outpouring of Joel is a flood.

    #41932
     Anonymous
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    hey sam,

    yeh, i think nick explains your questions pretty well… i'll only add that peter said on the day of pentecost that the prophecy of joel had been fulfilled…

    also…

    Quote

    But those who don't approach the Bible intellectually all disagree as well…


    hehe… absolutely, but is that because one is wrong and the other right, or because they're both somewhat right, but unwilling to accept the good points of each other's argument? (my guess is the latter) if we're open to the spirit of god, i imagine we'll be able to hear his voice even in the voice of our oponent… though it's easier to hold firm to a position, eh?

    Quote

    I do think that religion shouldn't just be intellectual, and that our faith should change our heart – yet this faith only “cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:17). Also, “wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word” (Psalm 119:9). Both our faith and our new life come straight out of God's word – I don't think we can underestimate the power of the Bible!


    but is it the bible itself, or the spirit of god speaking through the bible?

    Quote

    Have a good long weekend (are you in New Zealand?)


    i will… unfortunately i'm in australia, so no public holidays until christmas… dang!

    cheers,

    nate.

    #41933
     NickHassan 
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    Hi nate,
    Petr in fact said in Acts 2.16
    “But this is what is spoken of through the prophet Joel”
    I don't see that as saying the prophecy was completely fulfilled though so as to exclude fruther expression of it.

    It was Joel who spoke of the Early and the Latter rain in verse 2.23 symbolising the overflowing release of the Spirit in the early and last days of the church I understand.

    #41934
     Anonymous
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    hey nick,

    Quote

    I don't see that as saying the prophecy was completely fulfilled though so as to exclude fruther expression of it.

    It was Joel who spoke of the Early and the Latter rain in verse 2.23 symbolising the overflowing release of the Spirit in the early and last days of the church I understand.


    it is probably as you say, but my argument was that it was or would be fulfilled before jesus' return, in which case he could still usher in “that which is perfect [complete]”…

    cheers,

    nate.

    #41935
     NickHassan 
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    Hi nate and Sammo,
    Perhaps part of the explanation of the use of “perfect” is the context-the chapter before and the next chapter. Paul was talking about the gifts of the Spirit. We know only Jesus ever exhibited all of these gifts – preaching , healing , teaching , word of knowledge etc. We have a role to play in the body according to the gifts given but none has all the gifts.

    Jesus is the of head of the Body of Christ and we share the gifts as he distributes them for the good of all. See 1 Cor 12 Some are gifted as healers and some teachers and some prophesy. So we will not understand the whole function of the Body till we meet Jesus and in the meantime we should seek eagerly the gifts of the Spirit and use them as he appoints us to do.

    #41936
     Anonymous
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    hey nick.

    Quote

    Perhaps part of the explanation of the use of “perfect” is the context-the chapter before and the next chapter. Paul was talking about the gifts of the Spirit. We know only Jesus ever exhibited all of these gifts – preaching , healing , teaching , word of knowledge etc. We have a role to play in the body according to the gifts given but none has all the gifts.

    Jesus is the of head of the Body of Christ and we share the gifts as he distributes them for the good of all.  See 1 Cor 12 Some are gifted as healers and some teachers and some prophesy. So we will not understand the whole function of the Body till we meet Jesus and in the meantime we should seek eagerly the gifts of the Spirit and use them as he appoints us to do.


    makes sense…

    therefore, it can't have been talking about the bible… right?

    #41937
     NickHassan 
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    absolutely nate. Have a good w\e

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