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Testing the Trinity

The Spirit is the Spirit OF God
Yeshua is the son OF God.
So is the Father, the Father of God?

No he is God. He is not OF anyone. Even Paul stated this when he said, “for us there is one God the Father”. Today’s confession goes more like this: “for us there is one God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit”. So what is going on?

God had challenged my belief on the Trinity many years ago, as I blindly believed and excepted this doctrine as a pillar of my faith and assumed that it was the foundation of Christianity. But like most Christians, I had never really check it out. I knew at the time that God wants us to know what we believe in and to test all things and also to watch our doctrine closely.

When I started to look into the Trinity Doctrine I found many scriptures that really challenged my belief so I set out to understand the truth. When I brought the subject up with other Christians including many people who were older in the faith, there seemed to be this “do not question attitude” and in the end I decided rather than make waves, I would just leave it and except that the Trinity Doctrine was correct even though I felt that I was being untrue to the conviction in my heart. My problem was the fear of man. Many years later God made me face my belief in the Trinity again and he kept putting certain scriptures in front of me. In the end I decided that I would not run away from this anymore and I did a full on study where God divinely lead me to a new scripture, about one each day and each scripture in succession built a picture that really helped me to understand what he was conveying to me. First of all I would like to say that I have a clear understanding of the Trinity Doctrine and am very familiar with the scriptures that people use to support this doctrine.

Anyway what I discovered was quite interesting and I will condense what I have been shown below.

  1. The Trinity Doctrine is not taught anywhere in scripture, but trinities were common in Paganism. They are rooted in Babylon, prominent in Egypt, still exist in India, and is the foundation of Roman Catholicism.
  2. The beginnings of recognition of this doctrine for Christianity started at the Council of Nicea approximately 325 AD. Hundreds of years after the last book in the Bible was written.
  3. The Council of Nicea was organized by the Roman Emperor Constantine and he had the final say on matters that he had little understanding of. He was also head of the Pagan religions.
  4. During and after the Holy Roman Empire, creed followed creed, and eventually idols were accepted as forms that we can worship God through. Mary was exalted to Mother of God (a title that goes back to Babylon) and worship of the saints was also sanctioned.
  5. The organized church we see today was built on top of these creeds. The creeds were and are the foundation for many of today’s churches/denominations. These denominations are not to be confused with the Body of Christ spoken of in the scripture. Most denominations are still rooted in a Trinitarian creed of some kind. So their foundation is the Trinity which came from Babylon.
  6. The mother of these denominations the Roman Catholic Church murdered approximately 50 million people, had armies which Jesus said his church did not need, and banned access to scripture to Christians. This time is known by the descriptive term, ‘The Dark Ages’.
  7. Some relief came during the Reformation where the teachings and authority of the Catholic Church were challenged. The Reformation restored many truths back to the Body of Christ.
  8. As a result of the Reformation, many new denominations started up, but they too held onto some of the creeds including the Trinity Doctrine.
  9. Babylon means confusion and the foundation of most denominations is the Trinity Doctrine which is confusing to all, even proponents of the doctrine. We are told to come out Babylon the Mystery religion lest we partake in her sins and iniquity. Who is Babylon? She is the mother of all harlots and the kings of the Earth have committed adultery with her. She is the religious system that was rooted in Babylon and she has made the whole world drunk on her wine.

From a historical point of view it seems strange to me that one of the pillars of Christianity didn’t come into existence or wasn’t recognized until 300 years after the death of Christ. On this point alone, I think its strange that we are encouraged not to question this doctrine and worse still, the the circumstances in which this doctrine came about should lead any clear thinking person to be at least suspicious.

In addition to that, the fruit of this doctrine appears to be bad. We know that one lie leads to another and history shows us that making Jesus God, opened the door for Mary to become the mother of God. Further, if Mary is the Mother of God, then that opens the door to the worship of other humans or saints.

In Revelation 17 we read about the ‘Mother of Harlots’ or the Great Prostitute who sits on many waters. Many people have speculated on her identity. Some say it is New York or the USA, others say it is Rome. If you are not familiar with this section of scripture, then it would pay to read it now before reading on.

Lets imagine for a minute that it is Rome as Rome is after all known to this day as the city of 7 hills. Now Constantine the Roman Emperor who dictated to the church so called truth becomes the original model of the person we call the Pope today. The Pope sits on a throne with supreme authority to dictate so called truth to the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church admits by it’s very name that it’s roots are in Rome and many of the traditions she adheres to come from Pagan traditions and festivals and were re-branded as Christian back in the days of Emperor Constantine. In one sense we can see that these creeds led to the worship of idols and men and changed the truth of God to a lie. But in order for these man-made creeds and lies to be administered and managed, there needed to exist some kind of organization of man to manage the politics of enforcing such creeds. The organizations are of course the organized churches of which the Catholic church is perhaps the mother which would make the smaller denominations the harlots or daughters of the harlot. The term ‘Mother of Harlots’ of course leads us to wonder who the daughters or offspring are. We also read that the kings of the earth have committed adultery with this harlot and we all know that many world leaders befriend the organized church so they can leverage her influence for their own political agendas and to gain votes. There will however come a time when God will call his children out of her because he will judge her quickly.

Babel, Babylon, Egypt, and Rome all have one thing in common. Their motives were to become great and make a name themselves. They also built structures as a way of showing their greatness and prowess. But the spirit of Babylon, Egypt, and Rome also enslave the children of God and also hated them to the point of death. In Rev 17 we read that the woman was drunk on the blood of the saints and is guilty of all the martyrs. History also records the dreadful killings of Christians by Rome and the enslavement of Israel by Egypt, but how many people are aware that the Catholic Church is also responsible for burning to death millions of people including Christians. They were killed as ‘heretics’ for things like reading scripture, translating scripture, or daring to obey the scriptures instead of their traditions.

Many denominations today still operate under this spirit of control including the persecution of those who question doctrines like the Trinity. Try questioning this doctrine in any denomination that is built on this creed, and watch the horror on people’s faces and the warnings that will proceed thereafter.

We know from scripture that the curse of Babel was division. The Babylonians built a tower in their name and God divided their language to weaken them, lest they succeed in all kinds of wickedness. But this spirit also exists in the organised churches. Each Denomination has its own creed, its own leaders and own customs or tradition, and they are all about making a name for themselves. They build towers in their name and in times past the steeples on these structure were the tallest structures in their communities. Now can you see that denominations are really just the divided languages of Christianity, just the same as divisions caused by multiple natural languages resulting from Babel. And the reason for this division is not what many think, it is so they cannot together succeed at works of iniquity and while in this divisive state, they cannot accomplish anything their hearts desire. True unity is extremely important and something that God will bring about and is already doing. But unity in the love and truth of God is paramount, not unity in making a name for themselves. People are misguided when they think that it would be a good thing if all the denominations united under one banner. What is better it people uniting in the truth because of their love of God and all things that are of him.

You might ask, God uses denominations to spread his gospel does he not. The quick answer to this is God uses men to do his work. If these men are part of a denomination or not, God uses the man, not the building and not the system. If you look into this you will likely find that the system actually hinders men in being led the the Spirit of God and the system itself takes up much resources to run, when instead such resources could help the poor and needy.

Many are being used by God for his purposes and this has been true since the birth of the Church. In times of great ignorance, it appears that God does compromise for our benefit. He works with what he can and we often limit God, but God is constantly trying to give us access to his limitless resources. In this age of denominations, it is hard to accept that there really is only one church built on the foundation of Christ and the Apostles. The only divisions are actually geographical divisions. The 7 churches in Revelation for example aren’t 7 separate churches, but 7 cities in which the Church resides. For example, in the Book of Revelation where it says: “to the Church in Laodecia”, it is saying to the Body of Christ in that particular city. We need to open our eyes in order to see the real Church. When you can really see the Body of Christ, you will never again say, I am going to church, because you will realize that we are the Church regardless of your location. This explains why we also read in 1 Corinthians 16:19: “The churches of Asia send greetings to you. Aquila and Prisca greet you warmly in the Lord, with the church that meets in their house.”. So this simply means the part of the Church that meets in that house. It was not a denomination like we see today.

Most denominations today have a Statement of Faith as their foundation and these are usually based on creeds formed centuries ago. Often Christians are invited or required to take out membership and that often requires an acceptance of a particular Statement of Faith. This sort of thing is common, yet it is unscriptural and deceives people into thinking that the denomination is the Church and once they have membership they belong to the Church. This couldn’t be further from the truth. Anyone can agree to a Statement of Faith or a Creed, even a mass murderer could do that. True believers believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord, the Son of God, and the Messiah. The true Church is made up of God’s children and He dwells in them via his Spirit. Denominations on the other hand can contain true believers, but they can also contain non-believers, criminals, and unrepentant sinners. All true believers should use scripture and the Word of God as our Statement of Faith and we should realize that there is only One Church called the Body of Christ. The head of the true Church is Jesus Christ himself, not a Pope, Archbishop, or a president. We would do well to keep away from the words, wisdom and traditions of men.

Now the Trinity Doctrine says that God is made up of three persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But the truth is that the only true God is the Father. The son is just that, he is the Son of God, not God himself.

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

The above scripture is not to be taken lightly. Do not pass over it until you have grasped it. After all, it is eternal life and isn’t that the point of having faith in God?

Ephesians 4:4-6
4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Clearly, the God and Father of all is the Father and not Jesus. Jesus is the Lord according to the above scripture.

Instead of using the Trinity to describe the God and his relationship with his Son. how about use Jesus own words. Are not his words better than some creed that came from man? John 15:1-2
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

This scripture shows the same 3 levels that we see in the scripture below. Note: The word head means authority, head or source.

1 Corinthians 11:3
Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

The scriptures show us that we believers are united in doctrine by believing the following:

  • God exists and rewards those that seek him.
  • We must repent of our sins and turn to God and serve him.
  • Jesus is the only way to God and we should be baptized into his name.
  • Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
  • Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead to the highest position (throne), that he may present us to God, holy and sanctified.
  • Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to the Church.
  • The Spirit of God leads us and teaches us all things.
  • That Jesus will return to earth and all the earthly kingdoms will fall. The Kingdom of God will come to earth.

I can have true unity of purpose with anyone that believes these points. The Trinity should never be pushed or taught as a doctrine, but today it is taught not only as a doctrine, but a foundational doctrine. However the Trinity Doctrine as a foundation is actually another foundation. Another foundation is not the same as the true foundation.

1 Corinthians 3:11
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Now Matthew 16:13-18 has a key for us.
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.

Jesus commends Peter when he declares that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Now Peter never said that Jesus was God at that opportune moment, but I am sure that many Christians given the same question today would say that he is God, yet that answer is different to the one Peter was commended for. Jesus actually built his Church on this truth, so it is obvious from this alone that the Trinity Doctrine is not the foundation of Jesus Church.

Now it is easy to show scriptures that show the Father to be God and there also appear to be a few scriptures that say that Jesus is God (Elohim, Theos). Most of the time Jesus is referred to as the Son of God. Even the Devil and demons called him the Son of God. See Matthew 8:29 & Matthew 4:3-6

But a lot of people also ignore the fact that we humans are also called Gods. John 10:34 uses the word “theos” to describe Man.
Psalms 82:6 uses the word “Elohim” to describe Man.

The word God is also used for Idols and Satan.
Exodus 20:23 uses the word “elohim” to describe Idols.
2 Corinthians 4:4 uses the word “theos” of this world to describe Satan.

But it must be made clear that ‘Elohim’ and ‘Theos’ are not names of God, they are titles in the same way Master is a title. When we see the word God, it is important to read the adjectives to see what kind of God is being referred to. E.g. the Most High God (the Father) is different to the God of this age (Satan).

Now there are many gods as I have pointed out, but the Father is the Most High God. See 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 which says
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Also remember that Jesus calls us brethren/brothers. But to the Father we are his children or offspring.

Now Psalm 2:7 says
“I will declare the decree: Yahweh hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”

So the name of the Most High God is (YHWH) which is referred to by scholars as Yahweh. So Yahweh (God) is the Father of Jesus. So it is clear that Jesus is not Yahweh. He is Yahweh’s Son. Now Jesus in Hebrew is Yashua and he is never referred to as Yahweh. Yashua means “Yahweh saves” or “Yahweh is salvation”. So God’s name is in his son’s name. (Yah)

Ephesians 3:14-15
14 For this reason I kneel before the Father,
15 from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.

Just like Trinitarians today, the Jews thought that Jesus was claiming to be God, but Jesus defended this accusation with the following words in John 10:34-36
34 “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are gods’?
35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

So the Jews accused Jesus of saying he was God and instead of agreeing and saying something like “Yes I am God” Jesus defended himself with the statement “You are Gods (theos) and then he stresses that he was claiming to be the Son of God.” Many Christians still make the same mistake today. Read John 10:27-36 to read the above words of Jesus in context. In that context, Jesus even said to the Jews that the Father was greater than himself.

So who is Jesus. The following Statements are from the scriptures, and should be the words that we trust in in order to understand who Jesus really is.

  • God has spoken to us through the Prophets and now his Son.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • The Son is the exact brightness of Gods glory.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • He is the image of the invisible God.
    See Colossians 1:12-16
  • God sustains all things by his Word (Jesus is the Word of God).
    See Hebrews 1:1-6 & John 1:1
  • He is seated at the right hand of God.
    See Colossians 3:1-3
  • He inherited a name more superior to the Angels.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • He is worthy to be worshipped by Angels.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • God became a Father when he begat his son “You are my Son, today I have become your Father”.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • He is the Firstborn from the Dead.
    See Revelation 1:4-6
  • Jesus has first place in everything.
    See Colossians 1:18
  • Jesus is head over the Church.
    See Ephesians 1:22
  • He is Gods firstborn.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
  • Jesus is the Ruler or Beginning of the Creation of God.
    See Revelation 3:14
  • Jesus is begotten, not created.
    See John 1:3

The last scripture above, shows us that Jesus was not created. Many other scriptures show us that Jesus is begotten (born). See John 1:18 & John 3:18

Jesus is truly the only begotten Son of God. Yes we too are the Sons of God, but we were begotten from God through his Word (Christ). All creation was made this way. But Jesus was begotten directly from God and he is the exact image of God. And we (the church) are the image of Christ. Again I point out the importance of 1Corinthians 11:3 and Colossians 2:8-10 which says,
in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

Here we can see clearly that Christ is the fullness of God and we the Church are the fullness of Christ. So consider this, if we use this scripture to say that Jesus is God, then in all fairness we have to conclude that we are Christ. This is of course a misinterpretation of scripture. The truth is that Jesus has the divine nature and God also wants us to share that nature too. So just as the Deity is in Christ, Christ is in us.

To be divine and to be the Divine is two different things. One identifies a nature and the other identifies a person. God is the Divine and he shares his nature with his sons who are part of his family. Christ has divine nature as the Son is like his Father. But did you know hat we can also partake of the divine nature and still not be God? And if you understand that, then it must be that if Jesus has divine nature, then that also does not make him God.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

Moving on, Matthew 24:36 shows us clearly that the Son doesn’t know everything, yet God is all knowing.
“No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. My confession is that Jesus Christ is Lord and I believe that all will confess this one day. And I also believe that God is Spirit and Invisible and that he resides inside and outside of his creation. See 2 Chronicles 2:6. Similar to physical light, it is invisible except that it reveals all things. Now when light strikes a prism it reflects all the colours and this is like Christ. He reveals and reflects God who is light. Jesus reveals the Invisible Spirit who dwells in him. Jesus has a body and the glory of God is visible to us in Christ. There is no other way for us to se God or to know God or to fellowship with God. Jesus is the only Mediator between Man and God.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. Jesus is the Image of God and he is seated on the Fathers throne above creation and Jesus seats us on his throne.

Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne. Jesus calls his Father, God and he says that his God is also our God. See John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ” & Revelation 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Also in John 8:28 we read the following:
Jesus said “I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me”

Now 1 Corinthians 15:27 shows us clearly that Jesus is not God.
27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When the Most High God is being referred to, it is always talking about the Father.

John 3:16 says
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

To sum up: 1 Corinthians 8:5-6 embodies what I am saying.
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

The Trinity makes and idol out of God. Its no different to making a graven image from your hands as it is to make God into a diagram in your mind. It is the nature of Man to do so. The Trinity and Nicene Creed is the founding document to the man made organized religion that has suppressed and kept in fear many of Gods people. Upon that creed many heresies followed. If its origin is man then its fruit will be death, control and fear and history has revealed the fruit of this doctrine. God is a person and the Trinity Doctrine says that God is a class/family. We know that there are many gods, so the word ‘god’ can be used in the sense of class, but there is only one God the person otherwise there would be more than 1 God. I and many others including the Jews believe that God is a person, not an organization. Perhaps God is calling us out of Egypt and her gods. This is where the Trinity Doctrine came from and the Egyptians already worshipped a Trinity before the gospel reached them. All they did was replace the names. But the concept remains the same. A Christian appearance but a pagan heart. Two more scriptures before I finish.

Proverbs 8:22-30 Talks about someone who was brought forth by God, yet existed before creation and witnessed God creating the Cosmos.
Matthew 3:17 says “And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased” So WHO is Jesus? He is the Christ, the Son of God, the Word of God, the Image of God and the Wisdom of God. He is of God and shares his nature, but he is not that God in identity. The true God is the Father.

For a more in depth look at this subject, see the writing The Trinity Doctrine.

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122 Responses to "Testing the Trinity"

  1. DavidL says:

    I think the issue for me comes down to where a teaching ORIGINATES from – ie has it come from the mind of man, or is it Divinely inspired?
    you claim on your site that the teaching or doctrine of the Trinity comes from the Roman Catholic church and before that Babylon…so for a start we can see that what YOU are teaching here about the Trinity is really the product of your own theological study…it stems from the mind of man, an understanding formulated through the exercise of human reasoning…(rather than some direct revelation from Scripture).
    while one must acknowledge that the WORD ‘Trinity’ is a term that obviously originates with ‘man’ (like the word ‘rapture’), yet it is describing the unity of the Godhead…the oneness of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit…an understanding that is DIVINELY INSPIRED…a REVELATION that ORIGINATES from God Himself…!!
    You deride the Catholic church and it’s doctrines as a form of “Babylon” – yet YOU yourself have created your own type of Babylonian teaching that trusts in human logic rather than the Spirit of GOD.

    1. t8 t8 says:

      David, while history records the works of man, true history itself is not created from the mind of man, it is the true record of what has happened. The Spirit of God teaches us as does scripture, as well as life itself, discipline, and let’s not forget history. If we neglect all these, then that is to our detriment. Scripture after all records history does it not, and is there for us to learn from. We see the mistakes that Israel made and the Church has pretty much made similar mistakes. So history is in scripture in order to teach us too.

      Do not discard history. History and scripture are two witnesses.

    2. DavidL says:

      You have made a CARNAL argument against something that is SPIRITUALLY discerned.

    3. t8 t8 says:

      Jesus said, “this is eternal life, that you may know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent”.

      What I teach agrees with Jesus words above. When I say the same thing as Jesus, you accuse me of being carnal. And you obviously think that the Trinity Doctrine is spiritually discerned, when it is not even what Jesus taught.

      Clearly you need to look at yourself regarding your carnal accusation here.

    4. DavidL says:

      your own methods betray you – I do not accuse you, only state the obvious error in your judgment..

    5. t8 t8 says:

      I simply believe Jesus when he said, “eternal life is this, to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent”. And you are saying that my methods are carnal because I agree with Jesus. So what you are in effect saying is that the Trinity is spiritually discerned so it would nullify what Jesus said.

      I know you are trying hard, but I will not be swayed away from the saviours words.

    6. DavidL says:

      I remember as a young believer being told that bank tellers detect counterfeit notes, not by studying the counterfeits, but by continually handling the real thing…
      even though you use the words of Jesus, it is plain to those who know Scripture that what you are teaching here concerning the equality and unity of Father, Son, Spirit…is contrary to what the Bible itself teaches..
      the problem you are having is that you are attempting to understand a Spiritual reality in a logical and finite way..
      before his conversion the Apostle Paul was very zealous for the truth, yet his zeal was a carnal and religious zeal that actually led him in a way contrary to Christ – who is the Living Truth..
      Paul says in 2 Corinthians, that the natural MIND cannot comprehend the things of God – we cannot understand the unity of the godhead in a logical sense simply because it is outside of the natural realm of understanding and must be discerned SPIRITUALLY…
      Philosophers and Theologians will never agree, nor will they ever find the truth because it is simply GIVEN to those who can receive it as a little child..
      we must “Let go, and let God” – let go of our mental striving, and let God shed His light through the inspired Word.

    7. t8 t8 says:

      David, no amount of writing, postulating, and philosophy will change this fact:

      I believe Jesus when he said, “this is eternal life, that you may know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent”.

      And you do not believe Jesus words here.

      It really boils down to that.

    8. DavidL says:

      your understanding of this verse is filtered through the lens of your anti-trinity theology…thinking that these words of Christ somehow confirm your carnal conclusions (that the Son is not equal to the Father).. when really if you take a closer look you see that eternal life is in BOTH the Father AND Son together – you cannot separate the two as you attempt to do by isolating certain verses and denying others.
      But because you take the Bible according to the understanding of age-of-reason thinkers such as Isaac Newton (and others who deny the trinity on philosophical grounds), you interpret Scripture contrary to the way it is meant to be understood..and so come up with these extra-Biblical notions that seem on the surface to make sense until you dig a little deeper and realize what a confusing doctrinal mess you’ve brought into.

    9. t8 t8 says:

      Ahem. Read it for what it says. Remove the filters and it says that the only true God is the Father, and he sent the son. That is it in pure form. Read it yourself and be honest before God.

    10. DavidL says:

      Ahem, some HONESTY would be welcome – cause so far you’re peddling a mish-mass of secondhand doctrines and borrowed arguments that presents us with a Frankenstein concept of Christ as just another god….!?

    11. DavidL says:

      if the Son is ONE with the Father (the only true God) then is it some sort of blasphemy or idolatry to call the Son, ‘God’…as Thomas did..? PLEASE BE HONEST..

    12. DavidL says:

      (correction: “mish-mash” – a confused mixture)

    13. DavidL says:

      ie – you are teaching the very thing that you warn people of – B a b y l o n.

    14. t8 t8 says:

      lol. So the answer is DavidL, that I should pretend (like yourself) that Jesus never said, “This is eternal life, that you may know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom he has sent”.

    15. Alan says:

      Anti-Trinity doesn’t mean not exalting Jesus as the divine Son of God. Jesus represented God while on earth so he IS equal to God in that sense but he’s NOT God the Father.

      This debate is just another way of Satan confusing the believers. What we ought to do is read through the bible and test our beliefs based on what’s in the bible. All that I’m concerned about is accepting Jesus as our Saviour because he was the mystery that Paul wrote of. That he came to earth to fulfill the law and abolish it. Think about it – just as Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac, it would make a lot more sense for God to sacrifice His own son.

    16. DavidL says:

      if the Son is ONE with the Father (the only true God), then how can it be wrong to call the Son, ‘God’ as Thomas did..?

    17. DavidL says:

      Thanks Alan, no one is saying the Son is the Father – that notion comes from the carnal confusion of those who oppose the trinity.
      The Son is ONE with the Father in a similar sense as a wife (though the lesser vessel) is ONE with her husband..

    18. DavidL says:

      ..to say the Son is the same as the Father is like saying the wife is the husband..but that is the confused way anti-trinitarians try to discredit the truth.

    19. t8 t8 says:

      The problem you are not seeing DavidL is that Jesus clearly said, that the only true God was the Father and that the one true God had sent the son. Further, you say that God is three persons in one substance, yet scripture doesn’t say, “Father, Son, and Holy Spirit like you do. Rather it say God, Son, Spirit of God or God and HIS son. Can you not see that the Father is the one true God? Obviously not. But Jesus taught it, scripture witnesses to it, and thus we believe it. No one is going to snatch that treasure from our hands.

      Think for a minute. If Jesus is God, then why does scripture say God and the son. It would say God the Father and God the Son or the Father of God and the Son of God. Yet we do not find your theology in scripture. What see is as follows:

      Acts 2:33 (English-NIV)
      Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear,

      1Corinthians 1:3
      Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

      2Corinthians 1:2-3
      2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
      3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

    20. DavidL says:

      the reason Scripture doesn’t refer to Jesus as ‘God the Son’ is because He came to earth NOT AS GOD, but as man…He was WITH God and John says He WAS God – that is, He was ONE with the FATHER (not another god as you and other cult groups teach) but He left that exalted POSITION of glory He had with the Father and was manifest in the world as the Son of God – His Deity was veiled in the robes of humanity..
      Your understanding of the Trinity is all wrong, based on doctrine, not Scripture – If you could see how God can call TWO individuals ONE flesh, then you would be closer to understanding the perfect UNITY of Father, Son and Spirit (tri-unity)…knowing that the Lord our God (Elohim – plural) is ONE God.. THREE working in the power of ONE (JUST AS Satan’s counterfeit trinity 666 is THREE joined together under his ONE evil power).
      look again at the verses you quote – “..from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.” – Father AND Son together..it doesn’t say from God THROUGH Jesus, but God AND Jesus – they are ONE.

    21. DavidL DavidL says:

      the reason Scripture doesn’t refer to Jesus as ‘God the Son’ is because He came to earth NOT AS GOD, but as man…He was WITH God and John says He WAS God – that is, He was ONE with the FATHER (not another god as you and other cult groups teach) but He left that exalted POSITION of glory He had with the Father and was manifest in the world as the Son of God – His Deity was veiled in the robes of humanity..
      Your understanding of the Trinity is all wrong, based on doctrine, not Scripture – If you could see how God can call TWO individuals ONE flesh, then you would be closer to understanding the perfect UNITY of Father, Son and Spirit (tri-unity)…knowing that the Lord our God (Elohim – plural) is ONE God.. THREE working in the power of ONE (JUST AS Satan’s counterfeit trinity 666 is THREE joined together under his ONE evil power).
      look again at the verses you quote – “..from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.” – Father AND Son together..He is seated at the right hand of the Father in glory – they are ONE.

    22. t8 t8 says:

      Jesus is in Heaven now and at the right-hand of God that you say he is. Further, read Revelation. A glorified Jesus states that his God is the Father just as he stated when he walked the Earth as a man.

      Revelation 1:1 (English-NIV)
      The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.

      Revelation 3:12 (English-NIV)
      Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.
      Never again will he leave it.
      I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.

      Further, the New Testament was written while Jesus was in Heaven, so your excuse doesn’t wash.

      Paul writes this while Jesus is at the right-hand of the Father.

      Ephesians 1:17 (English-NIV)
      I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.

    23. DavidL DavidL says:

      Jesus said, “Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,”
      I know you try and discredit this Scripture, but the truth of this verse is solidly verified in our Lord’s own baptism – for not only was He immersed in water, but also in the FATHER’s blessing and the Holy Spirit’s presence..!!

    24. t8 t8 says:

      DavidL, you are a victim of the Roman Catholic Church. You are a tool for them. It is their foundation. Look up their creed. Whereas you would do better to listen to scripture. Paul states that we are to be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ. The Trinity is just a trick to get you away from the only name given under Heaven and Earth that you can be saved.

      Below are some historical references as a second witness after scripture.

      Encyclopedia Britannia, the 11th edition vol 3, page 365-366
      “The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son and Holy Ghost by the Catholic church in the second century.

      Encyclopedia Britannia, vol 3, page 82
      “Everywhere in the oldest sources it states that baptism took place in the name of Jesus Christ.”

      Canney Encyclopedia of Religion, page 53
      The early church baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus until the second century.

      Hastings Encyclopedia of Religion, Volume2
      Christian baptism was administered using the words, “in the name of Jesus”. page 377.

      The use of the trinitarian formula of any sort was not suggested in the early Church’s history.page 378

      “Go ye therefore and teach all nations, in my name” … the latter form being the more frequent.page 380.

      Baptism was always in the name of Jesus until time of Justin Martyr, when the triune formula was used. page 389.

      Catholic Encyclopedia, vol 2, page 377,
      Catholics acknowledge that baptism in Jesus’ name was changed by the Catholic church.

      Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, Volume 1, page 435
      The New Testament knows only the baptism in the name of Jesus.

      Hastings Dictionary of Bible, page 88
      It must be acknowledged that the three fold name of Matthew 28:19 does not appear to have been used by the primitive church, but rather in the name of Jesus, Jesus Christ, or Lord Jesus.

      The Canney Encyclopedia of Religion, page 53 states,
      The early Church always baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus until the developement of the trinity doctrine in the 2nd Century.

    25. DavidL DavidL says:

      to try and separate the three members of the godhead (as you are doing) really you are only making ANOTHER christian-cult teaching based on man’s CARNAL interpretation of Scripture…rather than relying on revelation that the SPIRIT gives.

    26. t8 t8 says:

      I am relying and standing on the words of Jesus Christ. “This is eternal life, that you may know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent”. I am rejecting your words.

    27. DavidL DavidL says:

      …so you rely on the words of Jesus…AND the words of catholic encyclopedias – quoting your pet verse (like Arius did) to deny what the rest of Scripture says..
      If eternal life is in the FATHER (the only true God), then why are we to be baptized in the name of JESUS..??? – the truth is that the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Christ – to be baptized in Christ IS to be baptized in the Father, Son and Spirit..
      Let Scripture interpret Scripture – “We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.” – 1 John 5:19,20

    28. t8 t8 says:

      DavidL, take off your bias glasses and you will see that the one who is true (God) has a son. So if the one who is true if Jesus, then please explain to me more about Jesus son. You see what you want to see. But I have pointed out the truth about this verse.

  2. Alan says:

    Salvation is through Christ, not the Trinity. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit do not equate to the Trinity.

    Thank you for your research. I too am swimming against the tide in this but the debate shouldn’t be the cornerstone of our faith. There are far more important work to be done and that is doing the Great Commission and spread the gospel of our Lord Jesus to all the nations. Winning souls is what count most

    1. t8 t8 says:

      Agreed that the debate is not the cornerstone of our faith.
      That said, people are being taught that the faith is the Trinity Doctrine and are being baptised into the Trinity.
      So I think it is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. Once the truth about this shines from the highest hill, then those that preach can preach the true gospel and preach about the true kingdom, and teach about the true God.

  3. Aljohn Dale says:

    Philippians 2:5-11
    Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

    That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

    And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Genesis 1:26-27 support by Colossians 1:16-17
    And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    1 John 5:7
    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.The same was in the beginning with God.All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    Colossians 2:9
    For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

    John 20:28
    Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    Acts 5:3-4
    Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that YOU HAVE LIED TO THE HOLY SPIRIT and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? YOU HAVE NOT LIED just to human beings BUT TO GOD.”

    Biblical Doctrinal Foundations of the Trinity

    1. t8 t8 says:

      Thanks for you comment.

      Rebuttals to how you have used these verses can be found here. You are welcome to debate the points there too.


  4. Stephanie Miller says:

    I found this article comforting and informative. I too have been going through the same thing in my faith. I have a strong faith but I was having trouble with the Trinity and when I would ask someone to explain it, I would feel either just as confused as when I started or sometimes more confused. So it was comforting to read this. Now I have a clear understanding.

    Fellow sister in Christ,

    Stephanie Miller

    1. t8 t8 says:

      Hi Stephanie. I am privileged to have helped you out in this regard. More can be found here if you decide to study this further.

  5. This question about Jesus’ relationship with the Father and the question of the Trinity has the potential of making there be at least TWO gods for Universalists. It is impossible for me to conceive of Jesus “helping” God make the heaven and the earth or “holding” the universe God created together (as Paul writes in Colossians 1). After everything is said and done, even in Genesis God did not know things and had to come or test ro find them out, hence I am forced to believe the trinity makes the best sense of all this information.

    1. t8 t8 says:

      Jesus said: “This is eternal life, that you may know the ONLY true GOd AND Jesus Christ whom HE has sent.

      I guess for me it is more about believing the testimony of Jesus and the apostles, rather than later philosophers trying to make sense of it all.

      The Trinity Doctrine either comes from the Spirit of God or the Spirit of man or possibly a doctrine of demons. It should be concerning to you that not one person in scripture actually taught the Trinity Doctrine. Not to mention that Jesus words above “are eternal life”. So how important were those words that Jesus spoke?

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