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Most arguments made in order to support the Trinity Doctrine involve a play on words. A recent example that came to light is Isaiah 8:12-15 and 1 Peter 2 where YHWH says he is a stone of stumbling and in Peter we see this stone of stumbling as Jesus Christ. Another would be where it says that God is light and later Jesus proclaims that he is the light of the world. Still another example is where we are told that God and Jesus are one. Thus Jesus is described as having the attributes of God, thus he must be God.
However, the obvious thing that stand out straight away is that Jesus should be like God as he is the express image of God, thus descriptives for Jesus would be the same or similar to that of God. Another point that is hardly ever highlighted by Trinitarians arguing their doctrine is that these descriptives are often also used of the Church or the disciples as well.
Where is says that God and Jesus are one, Jesus prayed that we would be one too.
Where it says that God is light, and Jesus is light, Jesus also said of his people, that “we are the light of the world”.
So these parallels are often made to support the Trinity Doctrine, but those who do, almost always leave out where the same descriptive used of others.
In light of this, I would like to compile a list of descriptives in scripture that are the same for God, Jesus, and the Church or a third-party that is clearly not God.
One descriptive answer per post please. It will be easier to catch them all that way.
John 10:29-30
29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30″I and the Father are one.”John 17:20-21
20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.1 John 1:5
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.John 8:12
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”Matthew 5:14-16
14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden.
15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house.
16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.Hi there,
Can anyone help me find where the church shares the same glory, the same honor, the same dominion for ever and ever as that which the Father and Son do? If so, we can show how the Father, the Lamb and the church all share in these things because it couldn’t be just the Father and Son share this or it would look like they are both sharing the glory which Jehovah doesn’t share. ;ORev 5:13And every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things are in them, heard I saying, Unto him that sitteth on the throne, AND unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honor, and the glory, and the dominion, for ever and ever. 14And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped.
Here we see that Jehovah will not give His glory to another or His praise.
Isaiah 42:8 I am Jehovah, this is My name, And Mine honour to another I give not, Nor My praise to graven images.
Surely someone can find evidence of the saints receiving the same blessing, the same honor, and the same glory and the same dominion as is given to the Father and Son in Rev 5:13 since the supposed theory here is that the saints are imitators of the Father and the Son and would be described in like terms.
lightenup.
The point here is; who are considered saints?
All christians are not automatically saints.
They are not refined by silver ,but by affliction(This is for them;the tribulation coming).
The ones that have overcome the tribulation will be the saints.(rev.7:13–15).
Many saints also ovecame tribulation in the past.Christians can not claim the reward before crossing the finish line.Such as:I am saved,and I am born again.I have made it.
Isaiah 48:10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.
If not even refined by silver,what more refined by gold?
The true church are them individuals that worship God in truth.
With all their hearts and souls.wakeup.
God is the only savior.
That is all salvation originates from God
Jesus Christ is a savior because Jesus Christ obeyed God to do so
Even as others have obeyed God to do so.
God has delegated the responsibility of saving (in part) to people
People like Gideon, Judges 6:14
And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?
Gideon did as he was commanded and Israel was saved by Gideon’s actions.
Gideon, is thus, a savior
Nehemiah 9:27
Therefore thou deliveredst them into the hand of their enemies, who vexed them: and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto thee, thou heardest them from heaven; and according to thy manifold mercies thou gavest them saviours, who saved them out of the hand of their enemies.
Saviors, plural, more than one. God is the only source of true salvation, but that does not exclude that God would delegate the business of salvation to others.
After all Jesus Christ was in the Father’s business, if the Father’s business included salvation, then Jesus would be involved with salvation.
When we teach salvation, ie, Romans 10:9-10, to others, we are involved in the Father’s business of saving others, for we teach the words that, when believed, bring salvation to others.
God’s glory.
We have been given God’s glory, even as Jesus Christ has been given God’s glory.
Romans 8:
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?SonofGod.
God is the saviour of all those saviours,and creator as well; On Him alone we must focus.
This is not about the other saviours.
This is about God and His Word.
About in before the beginning; and after the beginning.wakeup.
Wakeup,
Time for you to wake up to the purpose of this thread.
What your post has to do with my post in replying to the purpose of this thread is beyond me.
Why don’t you start your own thread to discuss your opinions?
Is Peter a rock too?
The Father is called theos
Jesus is arguably called theos.
Satan is called theos.
Some men are called theos.Theos is the word that is translated God in the New Testament.
Hi there,
Can anyone help me find where the church shares the same glory, the same honor, the same dominion for ever and ever as that which the Father and Son do? If so, we can show how the Father, the Lamb and the church all share in these things because it couldn’t be just the Father and Son share this or it would look like they are both sharing the glory which Jehovah doesn’t share. ;OJesus is often compared to God and the Church to Jesus.
Besides obvious comparisons I shouldn’t need to add that Jesus derives these comparisons from God and we from Christ.- God is good;
- Jesus is good;
- We can be good.
However, Jesus said something like ‘Why call me good. Only God is good’. He said this because all his goodness came from God, thus he was not claiming it for himself. So while he is the self-confessed “good shepherd”, his goodness comes from God and Jesus gives his God the glory.
Sonof God.
We have now a heap of rocks. What comes next?
We are all gods? We are the universe.
I thought Jesus was the only corner stone?
He is the rock of stumbling.wakeup.
The point is that many claim that God is a Trinity because of these similarities. So by highlighting them, it shows that it is faulty thinking to say that these similarities equal the same being especially when a third party is added to the list who is obviously not God.
The incarnate Son was of duel origin, at times he spoke as man subject to the will of Father during his incarnate life, at other times by divine rite. Jesus is in effect the Father of his co-creation, the existential I AM is his Father, the source of his divine being and the source of all reality. We know of the Father through the Son. To see Jesus is to see a personification of the Father.
SonofGod.
We have been given God’s glory?? For what reason?
For singing praises,and lifting hands in the air?
Then why is the tribulation coming?
Why some beheaded? Why is the falling away at the door?
Does our glory not come after we have been proven worthy for the reward?
Are we not to wait until born again in a spirit body?
Born out of the daughter of Zion? Please explain.wakeup.
Many times Trinitarians say that Jesus claimed to be God because he said “I am” in the Greek NT, which they say equates to the claim that he is God because God said, “I am that I am”. And “I am has sent you” in the Hebrew OT.
Unfortunately for this argument many others also said, “I am” in the Greek NT. The Greek words are ““ego eimi”.
Jesus said, “I am…”.
The angel Gabriel said, “I am…”.
Peter said, “I am…”.
A blind man said, “I am…”.Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Exodus 3:14.
@Colter, you said:
The incarnate Son was of duel origin, at times he spoke as man subject to the will of Father during his incarnate life, at other times by divine rite. Jesus is in effect the Father of his co-creation, the existential I AM is his Father, the source of his divine being and the source of all reality. We know of the Father through the Son. To see Jesus is to see a personification of the Father.
I agree. Yet this is in the Bible, and you say elsewhere that the Bible is rubbish, (not in that exact wording). Pity about that. It contains scripture that is inspired by God himself.
Please note this is off topic, so let’s not diverge too much. We are giving examples of descriptives or titles that are applied to God, Jesus, and at least a third party in order to prove that such arguments do not prove that Jesus is God himself.
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