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Hi,
Scripture seems to state that Jesus was conceived in the womb of Mary. Many here are convinced instead a newly created conceptus was placed in the womb of Mary.
It matters in that if the second option was true;Mary was not his true biological mother
He had no human genetic material from Adam.
We have to ask in what ways he was truly like to us.Lk 1.31
“And behold you will conceive in your womb..”
Lk 2.21
“..his name was then callled Jesus, the name given by the angel before he was conceived in the womb..”
Lk 1.36
“..Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age..”There are a variety of words translated as “conceive”and the word used [4815 Sullambano ]has a variety of other meanings.
But in these verses above the same word is used.
It would seem then that the same biological process occurred in Elizabeth as occurred in Mary.
Who will say Elizabeth did not conceive?
The first Adam had no true biological mother, are we not like him? except that he had no navel of course (or so we must assume)?
My thoughts:
JOHN 8:23
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.Not OF this world – what? OF God?
Not OF this sinful cosmos? – OF God's heavenly kingdom?Hi Malcolm,
Any discussion on Jesus as Son of God usually refers to his status as a divine spirit who was with God in the beginning, the Only begotten Son. That is one of the true natures of Christ, inner man, a pure vessel of Gold.
So as soul he was from above, but as outer man, Son of Man, he was from the stock of man. Scripture speaks of Jesus”according to the flesh” in his state as a man on several occasions.
He was like to us in all ways…except sin.Maybe it would be best to refer people to the following article in answer to this topic.
Virgin Birth – True or False – Fact or Fiction
YHWH Bless
Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 13 2006,12:32) Maybe it would be best to refer people to the following article in answer to this topic. Virgin Birth – True or False – Fact or Fiction
YHWH Bless
Hi RR,
Your article shows some myths about the birth of Jesus, and based on OT verses building on these myths seems to seek to cast doubt on the NT story.
Having denied the divine status of the Son of God and showing him only as man, a son of David, the article tries to also show Joseph as the physical father of Jesus by various forms of sleight of hand.
The authors will deceive few who know and love the Word.Quote (malcolm ferris @ April 15 2006,22:00) And as I have said before, conception is possible in this way as science today proved to us with invitro fertilization. Now there are some who hold that Jesus was not even virgin born. Prove it? no-one can prove this. We hold he was the virgin born Messiah. Prove it? We can only believe it by faith. My faith tells me this is what happened…
What does the OT say? How will be know who the Messiah is? He will be the one that fulfills the prophecies. Prophecy shows that he MUST come from the seed of David. Let us look at the verses:Quote Deut 18:18-19 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. Numbers 1:18 And they assembled all the congregation together on the first day of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls.
2 Samuel 7:12 “When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.
1 Kings 2:33 Their blood shall therefore return upon the head of Joab, and upon the head of his seed for ever: but upon David, and upon his seed, and upon his house, and upon his throne, shall there be peace for ever from the LORD.
1 Chronicles 17:11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
Psalms 89:3-4
I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish forever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.Psalms 132:11-12 The LORD has sworn in truth to David; He will not turn from it: “I will set upon your throne the fruit of your body. If your sons will keep My covenant And My testimony which I shall teach them, Their sons also shall sit upon your throne forevermore.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God (judge), Everlasting Father (Father of Eternity), Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 11:1-2 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his roots. The Spirit of the YHWH shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the YHWH.
Isaiah 42:1 Behold! My Servant whom I uphold, My Elect One in whom My soul delights! I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.
Micah 5:2 “But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting.” (Yahshua’s roots go all the way back through David and Abraham to Adam)
Jeremiah23:5 Behold, the days come, saith YAH, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jeremiah 33:14-15 “Behold, the days are coming, says YHWH, when I will fulfil the promise I made to the house of Israel and the house of Judah. In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch to spring forth for David; and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.
Both Matthew and Luke repeatedly state that Joseph is from the House of David. Joseph being the true biological father of Yahshua fulfills prophecy.Mary, according to any details we can get from the bible, is the cousin (relative/kinsman/related by blood) of Elizabeth and Luke states that Elizabeth is from the House of Aaron. If the Yahshua was born of Mary only then, from the material we are able to gather, he would NOT be from the House of David and can not be the prophesied Messiah.
What does Yahshua say concerning himself:
Quote Luke 24:44 Then He said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.” Quote Luke 24:25 Then He said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26 “Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?”
27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.
And what does Peter say:Quote Acts 24:14 “But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets. Quote Acts 28:23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening. We must use God's word as our proof.
How does the 'Virgin Birth' fulfill these prophesies?
How does a non-virgin birth compare with this scripture?
“Now all this took place to fulfil the words spoken by the Lord through the prophet: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son and they will call him Immanuel, a name which means ‘God-is-with-us’. When Joseph woke up he did what the angel of the Lord had told him to do: he took his wife to his home and, though he had not had intercourse with her, she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.” (Matthew 1:22-25 Jerusalem Bible)
The geneologies of Jesus given by Matthew and Luke differ.
Luke evidently follows the ancestry of Mary, thus showing Jesus’ NATURAL descent from David, while Matthew shows Jesus’ LEGAL right to the throne of David by descent from Solomon through Joseph, who was legally Jesus’ father.Both Matthew and Luke signify that Joseph was not Jesus’ actual father but only his adoptive father, giving him legal right. Matthew departs from the style used throughout his genealogy when he comes to Jesus, saying: “Jacob became father to Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ.” (Mt 1:16) Notice that he does not say ‘Joseph became father to Jesus’ but that he was “the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born.” Luke is even more pointed when, after showing earlier that Jesus was actually the Son of God by Mary (Lu 1:32-35), he says: “Jesus . . . being the son, as the opinion was, of Joseph, son of Heli.”—Lu 3:23.
Since Jesus was not the natural son of Joseph but was the Son of God, Luke’s genealogy of Jesus would prove that he was, by human birth, a son of David through his natural mother Mary. Regarding the genealogies of Jesus given by Matthew and by Luke, Frederic Louis Godet wrote: “This study of the text in detail leads us in this way to admit—1. That the genealogical register of Luke is that of Heli, the grandfather of Jesus; 2. That, this affiliation of Jesus by Heli being expressly opposed to His affiliation by Joseph, the document which he has preserved for us can be nothing else in his view than the genealogy of Jesus through Mary. But why does not Luke name Mary, and why pass immediately from Jesus to His grandfather? Ancient sentiment did not comport with the mention of the mother as the genealogical link. Among the Greeks a man was the son of his father, not of his mother; and among the Jews the adage was: ‘Genus matris non vocatur genus [“The descendant of the mother is not called (her) descendant”]’ (‘Baba bathra,’ 110, a).”—Commentary on Luke, 1981, p. 129.
M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (1881, Vol. III, p. 774):
“In constructing their genealogical tables, it is well known that the Jews reckoned wholly by males, rejecting, where the blood of the grandfather passed to the grandson through a daughter, the name of the daughter herself, and counting that daughter’s husband for the son of the maternal grandfather (Numb. xxvi, 33; xxvii, 4-7).”
It is undoubtedly for this reason the historian Luke says that Joseph was the “son of Heli.”—Lu 3:23.Quote (david @ April 16 2006,02:19) How does a non-virgin birth compare with this scripture? “Now all this took place to fulfil the words spoken by the Lord through the prophet: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son and they will call him Immanuel, a name which means ‘God-is-with-us’. When Joseph woke up he did what the angel of the Lord had told him to do: he took his wife to his home and, though he had not had intercourse with her, she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.” (Matthew 1:22-25 Jerusalem Bible)
From the following article: VIRIGIN BIRTH, True or False, Fact or Fiction,Quote Matt 1:22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23″Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name “Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”She was a virgin when the Angel visited and spoke to her and she conceived a child after having sexual relations with Joseph. This is a parallel prophecy of the quoted verse from Isaiah 7:14.
The prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 is shown to be fulfilled at Isaiah 8:3
And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son. Then said YHWH to me, Call his name Mahershalalhashbaz.
The Prophetess was Isaiah’s wife and no man/god child was born back in Isaiah’s time. Whilst Verse 8:3 doesn’t state that he had sexual relations with her, this would be the general understanding of this verse and the normal human child was the offspring of Isaiah and his wife. If this is not the case, the birth of Yahshua would in fact be a second ‘Virgin Birth’.It is a enormous move away from the illustrated meaning of the Isaiah 7:14 verse to think that it could possibly mean anything different when quoted for Yahshua.
It is also interesting to note that whilst the quote in Isaiah and Matthew states ‘and they shall call his name ‘Immanuel’ which is translated ‘God with us’. Neither child was given that name. Perhaps the true understanding of this prophetic verse should be the symbolic understanding that when the prophecy was fulfilled it was showing that once again ‘God was with his people’.
Quote 24 Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife,
25 and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.Reinterpretation:
Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of YHWH commanded him and took to him his wife, but did not have sexual relations with her (again **) until she had delivered their firstborn son, and called him Yahshua.Quote ** quote from the Dead Sea Scrolls a new translation. translated and with commentary. michael wise, martin abegg, jr., & edward cook . pg 65. (harpersanfrancisco copyright 1996) “who lies with a pregnant woman when her monthly period ceases or lies with a man as one lies with a woman: these are the ones who violate the way” a few of these words are guesses but the meaning is clear.
It is plausible that Joseph took a vow of abstinence until after the child was born.
Hi RR and David,
The most important relationship in scripture is that between Jesus and His Father God. He is the Son of God.
He is the only begotten Son who was with God and was sent into the World.
And he is the physical Son of God by the conception through the Holy Spirit in Mary. That is what scripture states.No matter what men try to show to say Jesus is not Son of God is anathema.
All other relationships pale into insignificance.
Scripture never states Joseph is the physical father of Jesus. It goes to great pains to state he is not. He knows he is not.
Mary is a virgin, states she is a virgin, and scripture states she does not have sexual relations with Joseph prior to the birth of Jesus.
Mary is frequently stated in scripture to be the mother of Jesus.
Joseph accepts responsibilty as a foster father for parenting the child and he does not tell others he is not the father. It is assumed by the publicthat he is the father.
Lk 3.23
“Jesus…being as was supposed, the son of Joseph..”
Jn 6.42
“They were saying
'Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know?..”
Mk 6.5
“Is this not the carpenter, the son of Mary and Joseph…?'”Mary is called his mother and she calls Joseph his father, but he says he has another Father in the same verse.
Lk 2.48
“..His mother said to him
'Son, why have you treated us this way? Behold your father and I have been anxiously looking for you'
And he said to them
'Why is it that you were looking for me? Did you not know that i had to be in my Father's house?”
Mary and Joseph are called his parents.
Lk 2.42
“Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the Feast of the Passover…But his parents were unaware of it”Joseph disappears from the gospels soon after. What seems clear is that the fact that God was the Father of the child was kept a secret. Only when the NT was written after the death of Joseph were these details made clear. Though demons and those with seeing eyes recognised his divine origins ordinary men did not and saw him as a son of David.
Scripture too states he is a son of David and as Mary was the wife of Joseph and it was necessary to marry within the tribe her origins should have been Davidic. The fact that Elizabeth was of another tribe and was related does not prove the relationship was that close that they had to be of the same tribe surely?
Besides as far as human origins go scripture says that'God can raise up children of Abraham from these stones”
Nick Hassen,
Doesn't this scripture make things clear?“Now all this took place to fulfil the words spoken by the Lord through the prophet: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son and they will call him Immanuel, a name which means ‘God-is-with-us’. When Joseph woke up he did what the angel of the Lord had told him to do: HE TOOK HIS WIFE TO HIS HOME AND, THOUGH HE HAD NOT HAD INTEROURSE WITH HER, she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.” (Matthew 1:22-25 Jerusalem Bible, caps added)
Luke 2:49 And He said (5627) to them , “Why did you seek Me ? Did you not know that I must be about My Father’s business ?”
The verse you quoted above was one I looked into some time ago.
What does it really say?
Quote 1722 en en en
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); TDNT-2:537,233; prep
AV-in 1902, by 163, with 140, among 117, at 113, on 62, through 39, misc 265; 2801
1) in, by, with etc.To use the word ‘among’ would not be incorrect.
Quote 3962 pathr pater pat-ayr’
apparently a root word; TDNT-5:945,805; n m
AV-Father 268, father 150; 419
1) generator or male ancestor
1a) either the nearest ancestor: father of the corporeal nature, natural fathers, both parents
1b) a more remote ancestor, the founder of a family or tribe, progenitor of a people, forefather: so Abraham is called, Jacob and David
1b1) fathers i.e. ancestors, forefathers, founders of a nation
1c) one advanced in years, a senior
2) metaph.
2a) the originator and transmitter of anything
2a1) the authors of a family or society of persons animated by the same spirit as himself
2a2) one who has infused his own spirit into others, who actuates and governs their minds
2b) one who stands in a father’s place and looks after another in a paternal way
2c) a title of honour
2c1) teachers, as those to whom pupils trace back the knowledge and training they have received
2c2) the members of the Sanhedrin, whose prerogative it was by virtue of the wisdom and experience in which they excelled, to take charge of the interests of others
3) God is called the Father
3a) of the stars, the heavenly luminaries, because he is their creator, upholder, ruler
3b) of all rational and intelligent beings, whether angels or men, because he is their creator, preserver, guardian and protector
3b1) of spiritual beings and of all men
3c) of Christians, as those who through Christ have been exalted to a specially close and intimate relationship with God, and who no longer dread him as a stern judge of sinners, but revere him as their reconciled and loving Father
3d) the Father of Jesus Christ, as one whom God has united to himself in the closest bond of love and intimacy, made acquainted with his purposes, appointed to explain and carry out among men the plan of salvation, and made to share also in his own divine nature
3d1) by Jesus Christ himself
3d2) by the apostlesTo use the highlighted meaning above is in context of the verses.
The word ‘business’ is not even part of the text.
I don’t find that this verse is speaking about God.
Should the verse be understood as follows:
Luke 2:49 And He said (5627) to them , “Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be among my fathers (teachers)?
In other words: Why were you looking for me? Didn’t you know that I would be here with the teachers?
Luke 2:50 But they did not understand the statement which He spoke to them.
But they did not understand that he would be among the teachers teaching them and that he was to be the greatest teacher of them all.
Can others see this?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2006,06:28) Scripture too states he is a son of David and as Mary was the wife of Joseph and it was necessary to marry within the tribe her origins should have been Davidic. The fact that Elizabeth was of another tribe and was related does not prove the relationship was that close that they had to be of the same tribe surely?
NickIf the women had to marry into their own tribes as you suggest, it would be impossible for Mary to be the cousin of Elizabeth.
Those commanded to marry within their own tribe were unmarried females who had inherited from their fathers. Their fathers had no sons to carry on the family inheritance and if they were to marry into another tribe the inheritance would also move to that tribe. These women were to marry within their own tribe to ensure this did not occur.
Quote Numbers 36:1 ¶ Now the chief fathers of the families of the children of Gilead the son of Machir, the son of Manasseh, of the families of the sons of Joseph, came near and spoke before Moses and before the leaders, the chief fathers of the children of Israel.
2 And they said: “The LORD commanded my lord Moses to give the land as an inheritance by lot to the children of Israel, and my lord was commanded by the LORD to give the inheritance of our brother Zelophehad to his daughters.
3 “Now if they are married to any of the sons of the other tribes of the children of Israel, then their inheritance will be taken from the inheritance of our fathers, and it will be added to the inheritance of the tribe into which they marry; so it will be taken from the lot of our inheritance.
4 “And when the Jubilee of the children of Israel comes, then their inheritance will be added to the inheritance of the tribe into which they marry; so their inheritance will be taken away from the inheritance of the tribe of our fathers.”
5 ¶ Then Moses commanded the children of Israel according to the word of the LORD, saying: “What the tribe of the sons of Joseph speaks is right.
6 “This is what the LORD commands concerning the daughters of Zelophehad, saying, ‘Let them marry whom they think best, but they may marry only within the family of their father’s tribe.’
7 “So the inheritance of the children of Israel shall not change hands from tribe to tribe, for every one of the children of Israel shall keep the inheritance of the tribe of his fathers.
8 “And every daughter who possesses an inheritance in any tribe of the children of Israel shall be the wife of one of the family of her father’s tribe, so that the children of Israel each may possess the inheritance of his fathers.
9 “Thus no inheritance shall change hands from one tribe to another, but every tribe of the children of Israel shall keep its own inheritance.”
10 Just as the LORD commanded Moses, so did the daughters of Zelophehad;Quote (david @ April 16 2006,07:07) “Now all this took place to fulfil the words spoken by the Lord through the prophet: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son and they will call him Immanuel, a name which means ‘God-is-with-us’. When Joseph woke up he did what the angel of the Lord had told him to do: HE TOOK HIS WIFE TO HIS HOME AND, THOUGH HE HAD NOT HAD INTEROURSE WITH HER, she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.” (Matthew 1:22-25 Jerusalem Bible, caps added)
David,If this was a direct fulfilment of that scripture why is the Messiah names 'Yahshua' and not 'Immanuel'?
Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 16 2006,08:23) Luke 2:49 And He said (5627) to them , “Why did you seek Me ? Did you not know that I must be about My Father’s business ?” The verse you quoted above was one I looked into some time ago.
What does it really say?
Quote 1722 en en en
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537); TDNT-2:537,233; prep
AV-in 1902, by 163, with 140, among 117, at 113, on 62, through 39, misc 265; 2801
1) in, by, with etc.To use the word ‘among’ would not be incorrect.
Quote 3962 pathr pater pat-ayr’
apparently a root word; TDNT-5:945,805; n m
AV-Father 268, father 150; 419
1) generator or male ancestor
1a) either the nearest ancestor: father of the corporeal nature, natural fathers, both parents
1b) a more remote ancestor, the founder of a family or tribe, progenitor of a people, forefather: so Abraham is called, Jacob and David
1b1) fathers i.e. ancestors, forefathers, founders of a nation
1c) one advanced in years, a senior
2) metaph.
2a) the originator and transmitter of anything
2a1) the authors of a family or society of persons animated by the same spirit as himself
2a2) one who has infused his own spirit into others, who actuates and governs their minds
2b) one who stands in a father’s place and looks after another in a paternal way
2c) a title of honour
2c1) teachers, as those to whom pupils trace back the knowledge and training they have received
2c2) the members of the Sanhedrin, whose prerogative it was by virtue of the wisdom and experience in which they excelled, to take charge of the interests of others
3) God is called the Father
3a) of the stars, the heavenly luminaries, because he is their creator, upholder, ruler
3b) of all rational and intelligent beings, whether angels or men, because he is their creator, preserver, guardian and protector
3b1) of spiritual beings and of all men
3c) of Christians, as those who through Christ have been exalted to a specially close and intimate relationship with God, and who no longer dread him as a stern judge of sinners, but revere him as their reconciled and loving Father
3d) the Father of Jesus Christ, as one whom God has united to himself in the closest bond of love and intimacy, made acquainted with his purposes, appointed to explain and carry out among men the plan of salvation, and made to share also in his own divine nature
3d1) by Jesus Christ himself
3d2) by the apostlesTo use the highlighted meaning above is in context of the verses.
The word ‘business’ is not even part of the text.
I don’t find that this verse is speaking about God.
Should the verse be understood as follows:
Luke 2:49 And He said (5627) to them , “Why did you seek Me? Did you not know that I must be among my fathers (teachers)?
In other words: Why were you looking for me? Didn’t you know that I would be here with the teachers?
Luke 2:50 But they did not understand the statement which He spoke to them.
But they did not understand that he would be among the teachers teaching them and that he was to be the greatest teacher of them all.
Can others see this?
Hi RR,
It could mean that.But since Jesus told his followers to call no man on earth father, teacher or leader it is unlikely he would do that either surely?
Do you agree?Quote (Ramblinrose @ April 16 2006,08:41) Quote (david @ April 16 2006,07:07) “Now all this took place to fulfil the words spoken by the Lord through the prophet: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son and they will call him Immanuel, a name which means ‘God-is-with-us’. When Joseph woke up he did what the angel of the Lord had told him to do: HE TOOK HIS WIFE TO HIS HOME AND, THOUGH HE HAD NOT HAD INTEROURSE WITH HER, she gave birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.” (Matthew 1:22-25 Jerusalem Bible, caps added)
David,If this was a direct fulfilment of that scripture why is the Messiah names 'Yahshua' and not 'Immanuel'?
Hi RR,
Indeed all who know Christ as a vessel for the fullness of God's deity recognise that truly he was and is
“God with us”
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